Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Never mind whether Die Hard is a Christmas film. Is Jingle Bells a Christmas song?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #51
    We Three Kings of Orient are
    Trying to light a rubber cigar
    It was loaded
    And explo-o-ded
    Something something something star

    Comment


      #52
      While Shepherds washed their cocks by night

      Comment


        #53
        Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
        Date of Saturnalia: 25 December (originally 17 December, before changes to the Roman calendar).

        Decision to site Christmas on 25 December formalised by Pope Julius I (337–352).
        Of course those who chose the date for the Annunciation as 9 months before Christmas may have been able to count on their fingers.

        Comment


          #54
          Are you and Patrick Thistle wilfully obtuse or just bad at comprehension? I expected better from Patrick Thistle, to be fair.

          Comment


            #55
            I may have misread your post as a defence of December 25 as Jesus' birthday.

            A group of wise historians got together, calculated (using what exactly?) the date Gabriel appeared, and then determined that exactly 9 months later Jesus would be born on what, coincidentally, happened to be the biggest midwinter festival celebrated throughout the Empire? That worked out well in terms of supplanting preexisting holidays.

            Comment


              #56
              Originally posted by G-Man View Post
              Are you and Patrick Thistle wilfully obtuse or just bad at comprehension? I expected better from Patrick Thistle, to be fair.
              no i'm pretty good at this, thanks. you wrote:
              As for the date... the date for the Annunciation was dated in the early third century -- before the Sol Invictus was a thing -- as 25 March; the beginning of spring. Add nine months -- to that, and you arrive at 25 December. That this coincides with the winter equinox is has to do with the dating of the Annunciation to coincide with the spring equinox, not with pagan mid-winter feasts.
              If you choose the beginning of spring for the Annunciation then the baby will be born 9 months laters- on the pagan Mid winter feast.

              Comment


                #57
                (Some) Modern Evangelical thought believes Jesus was born in late September. Around, if not on what would have been Sukkot (the Feast of Tabernacles)

                Comment


                  #58
                  Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
                  I may have misread your post as a defence of December 25 as Jesus' birthday.

                  A group of wise historians got together, calculated (using what exactly?) the date Gabriel appeared, and then determined that exactly 9 months later Jesus would be born on what, coincidentally, happened to be the biggest midwinter festival celebrated throughout the Empire? That worked out well in terms of supplanting preexisting holidays.
                  As I said, nobody knows when exactly Jesus was born, so the dating of the Annunciation and Christmas cannot have follow any empirical process of scholarship. Anybody who claims these dates are accurate is an idiot. I'm surprised that you think I am an idiot.

                  To clarify: for the purposes of the discussion of whether the date of Christmas borrowed from pagan feasts, the significance of the date of the Annunciation -- which obviously was chosen exactly because of the spring equinox for symbolic impact -- resides in it having been selected long before the date of Jesus' birth was celebrated (or dated), and before the cult of Sol Invictus was popular. So when the time came to pick a date for Christmas, the Christians didn't refer to the dates of that pagan feast, but to the simple maths of adding nine months to the already selected date for the Annunciation (which, to reassure Nefertiti, was set a century before the date of Christmas was codified).

                  As an aside, the date of Christmas might have been codified only in the 330s at the latest, but that doesn't mean that the birth of Christ was not celebrated on that date long before that. It means that the feast of the Nativity was entered into the Roman calendar at that time.

                  Also, very few scholars of any repute, if any at all, subscribe to the idea that Christmas was intended to usurp the festival of Saturnalia. It's better to leave Saturnalia out of the discussion of dating Christmas. Though, as I've said, many pagan traditions were translated to Christian feasts, consequently being invested with symbolisms of Christian significance.

                  Comment


                    #59
                    Originally posted by Amor de Cosmos View Post
                    Other parodies from the dim and distant past

                    We three kings of orient are
                    One in a taxi, one in a car
                    One on a scooter beeping his hooter
                    He didn't get very far.


                    While Shepherds washed their socks by night,
                    All seated round the tub,
                    The Angel of the the Lord came down,
                    And gave their socks a scrub.

                    And when their socks were squeaky clean,
                    And sparkling like a gem,
                    The Shepherds put them on again,
                    And walked to Bethlehem.

                    And when they got to Bethlehem,
                    All looking nice and neat,
                    The Christ child said you've got nice socks,
                    But next time wash your feet.

                    Three Kings concludes with Following Ringo Starr

                    Comment


                      #60
                      There was a version of we three kings that had them selling ladies underwear. But the words escape me (how fantastic, no elastic may have featured)

                      Comment


                        #61
                        We three kings of orient are
                        Selling ladies underwear
                        No elastic, they're fantastic
                        Seven and six a pair.

                        The third line may have been reversed, as ad hoc suggests.

                        Comment


                          #62
                          We three kings of orient are
                          Something something something something bra
                          Made of plastic
                          No elastic
                          Only five bob a pair.

                          (Even then, I was annoyed, if not distraught, that "are/bra" doesn't rhyme with "pair".)

                          Comment


                            #63
                            Originally posted by Del Usory View Post
                            Three Kings concludes with Following Ringo Starr
                            See my post on the previous page.

                            Comment


                              #64
                              Which is the best of these to appear so far

                              Comment


                                #65
                                Indeed

                                Comment


                                  #66
                                  Originally posted by G-Man View Post
                                  As I said, nobody knows when exactly Jesus was born, so the dating of the Annunciation and Christmas cannot have follow any empirical process of scholarship. Anybody who claims these dates are accurate is an idiot. I'm surprised that you think I am an idiot.

                                  To clarify: for the purposes of the discussion of whether the date of Christmas borrowed from pagan feasts, the significance of the date of the Annunciation -- which obviously was chosen exactly because of the spring equinox for symbolic impact -- resides in it having been selected long before the date of Jesus' birth was celebrated (or dated), and before the cult of Sol Invictus was popular. So when the time came to pick a date for Christmas, the Christians didn't refer to the dates of that pagan feast, but to the simple maths of adding nine months to the already selected date for the Annunciation (which, to reassure Nefertiti, was set a century before the date of Christmas was codified).

                                  As an aside, the date of Christmas might have been codified only in the 330s at the latest, but that doesn't mean that the birth of Christ was not celebrated on that date long before that. It means that the feast of the Nativity was entered into the Roman calendar at that time.
                                  .
                                  When the date of the Annunciation at the Spring Equinox was chosen, that also determined the date of birth at the Midwinter Feast.

                                  Comment


                                    #67
                                    We three Teds of Leicester Square
                                    Selling pants at tuppence a pair
                                    No elastic, how fantastic
                                    not very nice to wear.

                                    Comment


                                      #68
                                      Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                                      Which is the best of these to appear so far
                                      Yes, but you weren't allowed to mention frilly knickers in your day. Pre-Pill, and that.

                                      Comment


                                        #69
                                        Originally posted by Kevin S View Post
                                        Best version:

                                        Actually changed my mind - Gwen Stefani has done a cracking version.

                                        Comment


                                          #70
                                          Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View Post
                                          When the date of the Annunciation at the Spring Equinox was chosen, that also determined the date of birth at the Midwinter Feast.
                                          Yes. Which is the point I explicitly made. Twice.

                                          Comment


                                            #71
                                            So implicitly they were preparing for a Midwinter Celebration


                                            Last edited by Nefertiti2; 10-12-2018, 20:39.

                                            Comment


                                              #72
                                              Originally posted by G-Man View Post
                                              As I said, nobody knows when exactly Jesus was born, so the dating of the Annunciation and Christmas cannot have follow any empirical process of scholarship. Anybody who claims these dates are accurate is an idiot. I'm surprised that you think I am an idiot.

                                              To clarify: for the purposes of the discussion of whether the date of Christmas borrowed from pagan feasts, the significance of the date of the Annunciation -- which obviously was chosen exactly because of the spring equinox for symbolic impact -- resides in it having been selected long before the date of Jesus' birth was celebrated (or dated), and before the cult of Sol Invictus was popular. So when the time came to pick a date for Christmas, the Christians didn't refer to the dates of that pagan feast, but to the simple maths of adding nine months to the already selected date for the Annunciation (which, to reassure Nefertiti, was set a century before the date of Christmas was codified).

                                              As an aside, the date of Christmas might have been codified only in the 330s at the latest, but that doesn't mean that the birth of Christ was not celebrated on that date long before that. It means that the feast of the Nativity was entered into the Roman calendar at that time.

                                              Also, very few scholars of any repute, if any at all, subscribe to the idea that Christmas was intended to usurp the festival of Saturnalia. It's better to leave Saturnalia out of the discussion of dating Christmas. Though, as I've said, many pagan traditions were translated to Christian feasts, consequently being invested with symbolisms of Christian significance.

                                              GMan's version matches the scholarship I'm familiar with.

                                              It's worth noting perhaps - as it it weren't obvious - that this process of non-Christian stuff attaching itself to Christmas is exactly what this thread and the one about films is really all about. It's a process that is still happening.

                                              We've taken songs and films that happen to be about winter or happens to be set around that time and turned them into "Christmas" songs and films, even though they're not specifically about or for Christmas. That's not much different than how we got pine trees, snow, holly, red & green, snow, and a number of other symbols and traditions attached to Christmas. The mythology around Santa is also very winter-in-the-northern-part-of-the-northern-hemisphere-specific - the outfit, the sleigh, the reindeer, the shop in the North Pole, etc. The actual St. Nicholas was from a region of Turkey where, as far as I can tell, it has never snowed.

                                              Charities make a big push for help around Christmas not just because they're hoping to take advantage of The Christmas Spirit but because it's the end of the fiscal year and they need to make their numbers. It's also where the notion of "the Christmas bonus" - for the shrinking few who get one - comes from. It's not because one's employer is feeling especially generous or Christian around that time. It's just about accounting.*

                                              Dickens did a lot to secularize The Christmas Spirit, I suppose. But A Christmas Carol presupposes that there was a reasonably big push for charity around that time already. There's nothing there about Jesus' birth or advent or any of that, though, even though the overwhelming majority of the audience probably thought of themselves as Christian. It's a Wonderful Life has obvious religious undertones - the angels and all that - but it doesn't have anything to say about Jesus' birth. It's about community support and being grateful for friends, which ought to be a big part of Christianity but there's nothing specifically Christian about that.

                                              etc.
                                              *Indeed, the one and only time I got laid off was right before Christmas and my current employer has no qualms about not giving us a bonus because we, collectively, missed their arbitrarily set revenue goal. They even cancelled the annual Christmas Party at the London office and I was previously under the impression that a Christmas Do/Party/Piss-up was the birthright of all Britons, established in the Magna Carta.

                                              Comment


                                                #73
                                                Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
                                                We Three Kings of Orient are
                                                Trying to light a rubber cigar
                                                It was loaded
                                                And explo-o-ded
                                                Something something something star
                                                ...Now we're on yonder star!

                                                Comment


                                                  #74
                                                  Reed’s post makes me wonder whether East Asians consider Die Hard to be a New Year’s or Golden Week film.

                                                  Does anyone know? Furtho?

                                                  Comment


                                                    #75
                                                    Originally posted by Hot Pepsi View Post
                                                    They even cancelled the annual Christmas Party at the London office and I was previously under the impression that a Christmas Do/Party/Piss-up was the birthright of all Britons, established in the Magna Carta.
                                                    At least half the population would consider a firm promise of no Christmas party to be a considerable enticement.

                                                    Comment

                                                    Working...
                                                    X