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Never mind whether Die Hard is a Christmas film. Is Jingle Bells a Christmas song?

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    Never mind whether Die Hard is a Christmas film. Is Jingle Bells a Christmas song?

    Yes / No

    #2
    Best version:

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      #3
      Answer: yes

      Comment


        #4
        No. It was originally written as a Thanksgiving song. Of course, it has the seasonal qualities that make "Winter Wonderland" and "Let It Snow!" popular Christmas songs as well. But in its own right, it was not intended to be a Christmas song, and is a Christmas song only by association.

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          #5
          Mate, just look at Timmy. He's got a Santa hat on. Ipso facto.

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            #6
            Originally posted by G-Man View Post
            No. It was originally written as a Thanksgiving song. Of course, it has the seasonal qualities that make "Winter Wonderland" and "Let It Snow!" popular Christmas songs as well. But in its own right, it was not intended to be a Christmas song, and is a Christmas song only by association.
            The thing with all of these - in the UK at least - is that even though they are about winter in general their annual shelf life expires around 11.59pm on Christmas Eve, beyond which no one wants to hear them for another 11 months, even though snow is much more common in the two months after Christmas than in the month before. I'm not really that concerned about it, though am annoyed by the related issue of mulled wine only being a thing in the UK up to Christmas Day, whereas in Germany and presumably many other European countries you can readily buy it into March.

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              #7
              Christmas falls around the darkest days of the year, which is largely why lights and candles are such a big part of its symbolism and why it's such a popular holiday, even outside of Christianity.* We need Christmas. And even within the church, Christmas feels like a bigger deal than Easter, even though if you're strictly following the script, Easter should feel like the Big One.

              But even after the days start to get longer again, winter can get to be a real slog, especially in February and March. We need a better holiday then. Valentines day seems to mostly just create anxiety. Presidents Day isn't really holiday-worthy at all and MLK day should be more somber and serious. St. Patrick's day sorta serves this purpose for some people, but that's problematic for many reasons as we've discussed. So we need another winter holiday with lights and many days off work and merriment.


              * The Jews don't need Hanukkah to "compete" with Christmas or so their kids don't feel left out at school - though those things matter too, maybe- they need it because this time of year can feel so depressing so a festival of lights is a good idea.

              I don't know how it goes in "non-Christian" countries where really dark in winter. Do Mongolians have a mid-winter holiday to help ward off the SAD? I know that Christmas has become a bit of a thing in Japan, but as the Japanese love to do, they've turned it into something different - it's more about young romance there, for some reason. And what do people in the far Southern Hemisphere do in the dark days of June?

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                #8
                According to a friend in Israel Hanukkah isn’t a big thing at all there, and is seen as a weird American affectation.

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by Kevin S View Post
                  Mate, just look at Timmy. He's got a Santa hat on. Ipso facto.
                  Sold. It's certainly more of a Christmas song than some that you'll usually only hear this time of year:

                  Stay Another Day? No.
                  Frankie's Power Of Love? Nada.
                  Pipes Of Peace? Nyet.

                  Jingle Bells is on a similar end of the scale to something like Stop The Cavalry.

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                    #10
                    Given that the entire myth of the nativity is hugely unlikely to have happened and it's absolutely certain that it steals from so many pagan beliefs around midwinter including the "virgin birth" I wonder why even Christians don't just shrug their shoulders and say "fuck it, it's the middle of winter, buy your kids a present, be nice to your neighbours for a fucking change and have a sherry. That's all we meant, really."

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by 3 Colours Red View Post
                      Sold. It's certainly more of a Christmas song than some that you'll usually only hear this time of year:

                      Stay Another Day? No.
                      Frankie's Power Of Love? Nada.
                      Pipes Of Peace? Nyet.

                      Jingle Bells is on a similar end of the scale to something like Stop The Cavalry.
                      The Xmas theme was in the videos of those songs IIRC. Pipes of Peace didn't make No. 1 until January so has never been associated with Xmas charts (it was only at 22 in the Xmas chart of 1983).

                      https://www.officialcharts.com/chart...19831218/7501/

                      OTOH McCartney gets Xmas royalties from Wonderful Christmastime every year.

                      There's an X Factor cover of The Power of Love in the current chart but no Frankie version in there as yet.
                      Last edited by Satchmo Distel; 07-12-2018, 19:40.

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by Walt Flanagans Dog View Post
                        The thing with all of these - in the UK at least - is that even though they are about winter in general their annual shelf life expires around 11.59pm on Christmas Eve, beyond which no one wants to hear them for another 11 months, even though snow is much more common in the two months after Christmas than in the month before. I'm not really that concerned about it, though am annoyed by the related issue of mulled wine only being a thing in the UK up to Christmas Day, whereas in Germany and presumably many other European countries you can readily buy it into March.
                        Much of lowland Britain has relatively little snow, though, so 'White Christmas' is usually in theory only, whereas in Sweden or in the highlands of the UK "let it snow" in January makes more sense. I also felt as a kid that Xmas songs hanging around when you were back at school was rather cruel; rubbing your nose in it.

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
                          According to a friend in Israel Hanukkah isn’t a big thing at all there, and is seen as a weird American affectation.
                          It was specifically ginned-up by a rabbi, whose name escapes me, in the 70s. It may also be a thing in Canada. I recall that a Jewish family who loved briefly in our neighborhood when I was a kid celebrated it and they were from Montreal.

                          Israelis don’t need anything else to help them stay in touch with their Jewish heritage as a minority religion because. In that way, it’s like St Patrick’s Day in Ireland vs the US.

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                            #14
                            The composer of White Christmas was Jewish.

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by Rogin the Armchair fan View Post
                              Given that the entire myth of the nativity is hugely unlikely to have happened and it's absolutely certain that it steals from so many pagan beliefs around midwinter including the "virgin birth" I wonder why even Christians don't just shrug their shoulders and say "fuck it, it's the middle of winter, buy your kids a present, be nice to your neighbours for a fucking change and have a sherry. That's all we meant, really."
                              Well, Herod was a real guy, so that part is history. The rest of it is to just make a point about the blessedness of the meek while still fitting into the expectations of the audience - the connection to David and what not. Two of the Gospels don’t have the story at all.

                              Even if it did happen the way it says in the Gospels, it didn’t happen in winter, because shepherds would not have been out in the hills during winter, nor do the gospels say it happened in winter. It just fell that way on the church calendar because the themes fit with the winter solstice and New Year themes.

                              For the real church nerds - yes, that's definitely a thing here - it's all about Advent and the theme of anticipation and preparation. But most people don't really get into the "Christmas spirit," whatever that means, until about December 23 and then forget about it on Jan. 2. The 12 Days of Christmas or the tradition that Christmas starts on Dec. 25 hasn't caught on in the US.

                              Indeed, it hasn’t even always been all that big of a deal within Christendom. As I mentioned in that other thread, the Puritans were anti-Christmas and, apparently, Charles Dickens is given a lot of credit for reinvigorating it in the Anglosphere. In the early Victorian era, it was less of a big deal than Easter or even Boxing Day, apparently.

                              Any kind of big celebration like this presupposes that the people involved are middle-class in the broadest sense. It needs to be special, but not so special that you can’t afford it. If you’re a peasant or working 18 hours a day in a Satanic mill, you can’t really take off much time to visit relatives or have a feast, let alone presents. And every day is Christmas for the idle rich.
                              Last edited by Hot Pepsi; 07-12-2018, 20:41.

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                                #16
                                Christmas is rarely white in most of the US either, but that expectation has been reinforced over and over - first in A Christmas Carol, then in "White Christmas," and It's a Wonderful Life. It was also snowy in Charlie Brown's Christmas, but then that was Minnesota where it often is white in December.

                                And now, almost all TV commercials around Christmas show snow (along with the dubious notion that people buy expensive cars for their spouse without consulting them about it and present them with a giant bow on top).

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                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Walt Flanagans Dog View Post
                                  I'm not really that concerned about it, though am annoyed by the related issue of mulled wine only being a thing in the UK up to Christmas Day, whereas in Germany and presumably many other European countries you can readily buy it into March.
                                  I sell mulled wine all year round. All right, I've never sold one between June and September, but if someone wanted one then, they could have it.

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                                    #18
                                    The idea that the Christmas is really a pagan feast dressed up in religion and the date is predicated on the Sol Invictus is a bit dubious. It is no doubt true that Christians appropriated pagan customs, and that the nativity narrative might have borrowed themes from pagan myths (there is no scholarly consensus on that) and taken literary license in referring to what we now call the Old Testament (especially Matthew, who was addressing Jews), the person of Jesus must have been born at some unknown point, and very likely in Bethlehem. It's the birth which Christians celebrate, not the putative timing of it (though a putative timing it must have, absent a birth certificate).

                                    As for the date... the date for the Annunciation was dated in the early third century -- before the Sol Invictus was a thing -- as 25 March; the beginning of spring. Add nine months -- to that, and you arrive at 25 December. That this coincides with the winter equinox is has to do with the dating of the Annunciation to coincide with the spring equinox, not with pagan mid-winter feasts.

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                                      #19
                                      Much like Halloween as a survivor of pagan Celtic festivals being not much more than an antiquarian ball of smoke.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
                                        The Xmas theme was in the videos of those songs IIRC.
                                        Correct in all cases. But when you're hearing these songs on the radio or from a CD being piped in through a shop's PA system, any visual association is absent.

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                                          #21
                                          Stay Another Day has bells at the end, but I'm not sure they were on the original version. I'm sure it had a different video originally as well. The Christmas theme to it seemed to be added to it once it looked like it was going to be number 1 at Xmas.

                                          Of course I have literally nothing to back this up, except the hazy 24 year old memories from when I was 10.

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                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
                                            There's an X Factor cover of The Power of Love in the current chart but no Frankie version in there as yet.
                                            Burning in Hell for eternity is too good for these cunts.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by G-Man View Post
                                              The idea that the Christmas is really a pagan feast dressed up in religion and the date is predicated on the Sol Invictus is a bit dubious. It is no doubt true that Christians appropriated pagan customs, and that the nativity narrative might have borrowed themes from pagan myths (there is no scholarly consensus on that) and taken literary license in referring to what we now call the Old Testament (especially Matthew, who was addressing Jews), the person of Jesus must have been born at some unknown point, and very likely in Bethlehem. It's the birth which Christians celebrate, not the putative timing of it (though a putative timing it must have, absent a birth certificate).

                                              As for the date... the date for the Annunciation was dated in the early third century -- before the Sol Invictus was a thing -- as 25 March; the beginning of spring. Add nine months -- to that, and you arrive at 25 December. That this coincides with the winter equinox is has to do with the dating of the Annunciation to coincide with the spring equinox, not with pagan mid-winter feasts.
                                              Correct. Though I thought it had something to do with being around New Years - I.e. start the year with the beginning of the New Testament or something like that. Maybe I dreamed that.

                                              But either way, we need a mid-winter feast, regardless. If somehow tradition had worked out that Jesus was born in early August, for example, I don’t think it would rate as much of a holiday.

                                              We have other holidays that have more significance because of when they are than what they’re supposed to be for - Memorial Day and Labor Day traditionally bookend summer (I don’t know how or if they do that in other countries) and Independence Day is the unofficial middle of summer.

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                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
                                                Much like Halloween as a survivor of pagan Celtic festivals being not much more than an antiquarian ball of smoke.
                                                Are you suggesting that the feast of All Saints, instituted in Rome in the 700s by the pope, was based on a Celtic tradition in Ireland? I'm all for national pride, but I fear you might be overestimating the international influence of Irish culture on medieval Europe. Or are you saying that pagan practices were enculturated into religious practices? In which case you are obviously correct.

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                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by Sean of the Shed View Post
                                                  Burning in Hell for eternity is too good for these cunts.
                                                  In slightly better news, no X-Factor winner has got a #1 single since 2014. Surely Cowell and/or ITV will not tolerate such failure for much longer.

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