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Never mind whether Die Hard is a Christmas film. Is Jingle Bells a Christmas song?

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    #76
    Originally posted by G-Man View Post
    As I said, nobody knows when exactly Jesus was born, so the dating of the Annunciation and Christmas cannot have follow any empirical process of scholarship. Anybody who claims these dates are accurate is an idiot. I'm surprised that you think I am an idiot.
    I don't think you're an idiot.

    Originally posted by G-Man View Post
    To clarify: for the purposes of the discussion of whether the date of Christmas borrowed from pagan feasts, the significance of the date of the Annunciation -- which obviously was chosen exactly because of the spring equinox for symbolic impact -- resides in it having been selected long before the date of Jesus' birth was celebrated (or dated), and before the cult of Sol Invictus was popular.
    I'd really like to see your sources on that.

    And why the Spring Equinox? Oh yeah, Astarte, Oestre, and all that. Makes sense for Mary to get pregnant on a fertility festival.

    Originally posted by G-Man View Post
    So when the time came to pick a date for Christmas, the Christians didn't refer to the dates of that pagan feast, but to the simple maths of adding nine months to the already selected date for the Annunciation (which, to reassure Nefertiti, was set a century before the date of Christmas was codified).

    As an aside, the date of Christmas might have been codified only in the 330s at the latest, but that doesn't mean that the birth of Christ was not celebrated on that date long before that. It means that the feast of the Nativity was entered into the Roman calendar at that time.
    On the one hand the annunciation date happens way before codification of Christmas, on the other codification of Christmas happens way after Christians started celebrating Christmas on Dec 25. How can you say with any certainty which came first?

    Originally posted by G-Man View Post
    Also, very few scholars of any repute, if any at all, subscribe to the idea that Christmas was intended to usurp the festival of Saturnalia.
    Really? I think there's a lot of mileage in this. Notably because many of the church fathers were explicitly big on how pagan ideas were forerunners of the truth. Justin Martyr, for example, said pagan parallels were to be expected.

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      #77
      Originally posted by Benjm View Post
      At least half the population would consider a firm promise of no Christmas party to be a considerable enticement.
      maybe that was why the early church chose spring equinox as the date for the annunciation, whilst making sure the birth wouldn't replace midwinter solstice festivals.

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        #78
        IIRC, there was a tradition that important people were conceived on the same day they died. Jesus’ death, resurrection, and ascension are all fixed on the calendar around Passover. It’s in the story.

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          #79
          Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
          On the one hand the annunciation date happens way before codification of Christmas, on the other codification of Christmas happens way after Christians started celebrating Christmas on Dec 25. How can you say with any certainty which came first?
          A Jerusalem scholar named Sextus Julius Africanus "calculated" the date of the Annunciation in 221 AD. That is documented.

          The first documented mention of Christmas being celebrated on December 25 is from 336, shortly before it was codified by the pope. There are more or less vague references to the birth of Christ being celebrated before that, but this is the documented date. But that does not preclude the idea that Christmas was celebrated on December 25 before that.

          Indeed, for about the first half of Christianity, the holy feasts (such as those of saints) tended to first gain popularity on the grassroots before they were declared official. Saints would be "made" by acclamation, and their celebrations would spread, if popular enough. It is reasonable to assume that the celebration of Christ's birth followed the same process: grassroots celebrations until the authorities entered it into the calendar. But absent documentation, we can only deduce from what information is available, not prove anything.

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            #80
            Jehovah's Witnesses don't celebrate Christmas, at least officially. You can kind of understand why when you delve into the origins of the modern day festival.

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              #81
              Must confess that until this thread I had no idea that Mary had a traditional 9 month pregnancy after getting knocked up by The Man Upstairs. I guess I imagined that it would be non standard in other ways too and that it would be over within a month or so. She had to go through morning sickness too? Seems kind of cruel

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                #82
                Similarly I'd thought that Mary had a fairly short pregnancy, as I'd always thought that Assumption (August 15th) was the day she became pregnant, but reading up on it now it appears that was when she was taken upto heaven.

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                  #83
                  Originally posted by Prester John View Post
                  Jehovah's Witnesses don't celebrate Christmas, at least officially. You can kind of understand why when you delve into the origins of the modern day festival.
                  I used to work with a JW and she wouldn't go out for lunch from about mid-November onwards just in case we were trying to trick her into celebrating Christmas.

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                    #84
                    One of my childhood mates had Jehova's Witness parents. He used to come round to our (and others') place on Christmas Day afternoon for cake and television.

                    His father was the biggest drinker I'd ever encountered at the time (and I come from a family who could pack it away when they wanted to). Home-brewed bitter, bathtubs full of the stuff.

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                      #85
                      Originally posted by treibeis View Post
                      One of my childhood mates had Jehova's Witness parents. He used to come round to our (and others') place on Christmas Day afternoon for cake and television.

                      His father was the biggest drinker I'd ever encountered at the time (and I come from a family who could pack it away when they wanted to). Home-brewed bitter, bathtubs full of the stuff.
                      Yeh, heavy drinking is a big hidden problem amongst JWs, partly because alcohol in itself is not frowned upon, provided it's drunk in moderation. Of course, what is moderation? That's where many of the problems begin.

                      Re Christmas, it's my guess that many JWs celebrate it in spirit, even though they literally don't give presents to one another.

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                        #86
                        I think JW's don't do birthdays in general. Maybe I should invite a couple of them in to find out next time they stand outside my gate.

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                          #87
                          I don't celebrate Christmas. Like most pagans I bring a tree into my house, decorate it with lights to signify midwinter, exchange gifts with my friends and family, and enjoy a big hearty midwinter feast. Can't believe Christians miss out on all of that, the loonies.

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                            #88
                            JWs are allowed to celebrate wedding anniversaries, so they choose a couples anniversary that is closet to Christmas and throw a big party. (If my Auntie Lin is anything to go by.)

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                              #89
                              Originally posted by Benjm View Post
                              I used to work with a JW and she wouldn't go out for lunch from about mid-November onwards just in case we were trying to trick her into celebrating Christmas.
                              I used to work with a JW who took every Christmas off, denying the Catholic woman she jobshared with any opportunity to have a break and celebrate with her family living abroad.

                              Pehaps she just liked the telly, the selfish bastard.

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                                #90
                                Originally posted by Toby Gymshorts View Post
                                I used to work with a JW who took every Christmas off, denying the Catholic woman she jobshared with any opportunity to have a break and celebrate with her family living abroad.
                                Who was responsible for approving their leave requests?

                                Mrs Benjm's job involves being on call for one week out of every six or so. Not much happens but it is an imposition as the person covering has to be within an hour's travel of work and fit to go in throughout the call period, 24/7. It is noticeable that colleagues who ask to be relieved from their turn to celebrate various religious festivals, or for any other reasons to be fair, rarely seem inclined to pay it back by volunteering for Christmas or New Year because, "it's the holidays". Not all of them have child care to consider, which is a factor for some when schools are closed, regardless of the underlying reason for the holiday.

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                                  #91
                                  Originally posted by Billy Casper View Post
                                  JWs are allowed to celebrate wedding anniversaries, so they choose a couples anniversary that is closet to Christmas and throw a big party. (If my Auntie Lin is anything to go by.)
                                  Yes, you are allowed to throw a huge and gaudy anniversary party and glorify a married couple in front of hundreds of people, but you cannot give a birthday present to your child in the privacy of your own home and say,

                                  "Happy Birthday. I love you."

                                  Sad.

                                  Comment


                                    #92
                                    Originally posted by Benjm View Post
                                    Who was responsible for approving their leave requests?
                                    A racist, sexist old scumbag who used to regularly call me (as a shy 18 year old, straight from A levels into my first job) from his office to tell me that on the "security" camera he'd had installed, he could see right down the receptionist's blouse.

                                    Anyway. The holiday year ran from 1/1 to 31/12 and here's a shitty rule for you; for part-time and jobshare staff, holidays could only be booked in the year they were to be taken. So. Mary (not her real name) the JW jobshare receptionist who worked mornings, would arrive back at work after New Year refreshed from her definitely-not-a-Christmas-break and promptly book her year's leave in advance. Which the racist, sexist old scumbag would approve immediately, because security camera.

                                    By the time Elena (not her real name) arrived at work for her afternoon shift she'd be greeted by the sight of the holiday rota spreadsheet all neatly blocked out in Mary's colours, which must have been a yearly kick in the teeth. Weirdly, Mary always had Christmas booked out, because presumably she was having copies of the year-end Radio Times sent back to her from her future self and she was dead excited about the repeat of The Sound of Music.

                                    Then my phone would ring.
                                    Last edited by Toby Gymshorts; 11-12-2018, 19:36.

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                                      #93
                                      I'll add three things:

                                      1. Mary was a fucking nightmare of a person. Her religious beliefs have nothing to do with my opinion, she was just a nasty, spiteful bastard who happened to believe that her kids should probably die if they ever needed a transplant or a blood transfusion. They always had a nice break at the end of the year, though.
                                      2. Elena was a thoroughly lovely, decent person. Her religious beliefs have nothing to do with my opinion, she was just thoughtful and kind and too bloody nice to tell Mary to fuck off. Which, of course, is what she should have done.
                                      3. I fucking viscerally hated John (definitely his real name). Just a shit of the highest (lowest?) order. He was every single stereotype of horrible office managers you care to mention. His wife, however, was a wonderful person which makes me wonder what the fuck she was doing with that old bastard.

                                      Halcyon days.

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                                        #94
                                        Originally posted by treibeis View Post
                                        We three kings of orient are
                                        Something something something something bra
                                        Made of plastic
                                        No elastic
                                        Only five bob a pair.

                                        (Even then, I was annoyed, if not distraught, that "are/bra" doesn't rhyme with "pair".)
                                        We three kings of Leicester Square
                                        Selling ladies' underwear
                                        No elastic, how fantastic
                                        Not very safe to wear



                                        My krismas has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus, as it goes. I don't mind christians celebrating whatever it is they celebrate, of course. But it's got nothing to do with the festival.
                                        Last edited by DCI Harry Batt; 11-12-2018, 19:52.

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                                          #95
                                          Originally posted by Prester John View Post
                                          Yes, you are allowed to throw a huge and gaudy anniversary party and glorify a married couple in front of hundreds of people, but you cannot give a birthday present to your child in the privacy of your own home and say,

                                          "Happy Birthday. I love you."

                                          Sad.
                                          Many cultures around the world are obsessed with encouraging and celebrating marriage and procreation while also expecting the many children produced by those couples to be quiet, obedient, and humble. It’s a crap way to run a species.

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                                            #96
                                            My thoughts about Jehovah's Witnesses are skewed by a lad I went to school with, who managed to get in the football team despite having two left feet and playing in brogues. He also insisted on wearing a blazer even though our uniform was a sweatshirt with a massive logo printed on it.

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                                              #97
                                              [QUOTE=Toby Gymshorts;1502848]I'll add three things:

                                              1. Mary was a fucking nightmare of a person. Her religious beliefs have nothing to do with my opinion, she was just a nasty, spiteful bastard./QUOTE]

                                              I suppose I should point out that I was an active JW for many years, but not any more. So I have a bit of insider knowledge.

                                              And yes, like all religions, JWs have their share of people who would gleefully be burning people at the stake had they lived in the 16th century

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                                                #98
                                                Originally posted by 3 Colours Red View Post
                                                My thoughts about Jehovah's Witnesses are skewed by a lad I went to school with, who managed to get in the football team despite having two left feet and playing in brogues. He also insisted on wearing a blazer even though our uniform was a sweatshirt with a massive logo printed on it.
                                                That lad seemed a bit radical. JWs would not be encouraged to get involved in extra curricular activities. That usually knocks the school football team on the head

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                                                  #99
                                                  Originally posted by Prester John View Post
                                                  That lad seemed a bit radical. JWs would not be encouraged to get involved in extra curricular activities. That usually knocks the school football team on the head
                                                  He almost had no choice - there were only 12 boys eligible for the team (this was primary school and only Years 5 and 6 could play) and we needed at least one sub. Yours truly was the one stuck on the bench because the captain didn't like me.

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                                                    If you've had enough of the Timmy Time version, and even the Gwen Stefani version, then try this one for a change of pace:

                                                    Jingle Bells in a minor key:

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