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    Originally posted by 3 Colours Red View Post
    We've always had a happy knack of producing left-footers. Pretty much the opposite of England until Ashley Cole came along.
    Well, Man Utd have a bit of a Catholic history.

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      A newcomer to this, Alisson's save last night - I've actually seen tweets referring to it as the best save ever. It was good, but the shot is hit straight at him - if anything he appears to be diving away from it when it hits the top of his leg.

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        Yes I agree.

        Also, Stepney's save from Eusebio in 1968. Straight at him.

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          The 1974 Dutch team were pretty comprehensively outplayed by the Germans after the 20 minute mark once they'd got their bearings and realised the Dutch had no real intention of pushing to put the game away. The Dutch were better in the second half and dented Sepp Maier's door pretty good trying to beat it down, but even then West Germany had a goal waved off for no real reason. Furthermore, the Germans basically beat the Dutch at their own game. OK, less positional shifting but they were playing at least as attractive football.

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            And Germany had a clear-cut penalty denied. And Cruyff should have been sent off for an assault on Sepp Maier (which was worth at least as second yellow)... They can't have any complaints about the final. But their performance in the tournament in total cannot really be overrated. They were a magnificent side.

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              Originally posted by G-Man View Post
              Well, Man Utd have a bit of a Catholic history.
              You do know I'm talking about Wales, right?

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                Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post

                Where to begin. Well..... I watched this match, because I watched highlights of it and it looked like all of the highlights videos were made by rabid man utd fans who left out the barcelona play.
                Sounds like reading one of your post match comments when Van Gaal was Man Utd manager.

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                  Originally posted by Sporting View Post
                  Yes I agree.

                  Also, Stepney's save from Eusebio in 1968. Straight at him.
                  Yes, but he held on to it, then immediately threw it out to a defender without milking the moment and brushed aside Eusebio's congratulations in a manner that said " Yes I saved it. I'm a goalkeeper. That's what I do."

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                    Originally posted by Third rate Leszno View Post
                    That night in Barcelona - it wasn’t even the most exciting finish to a match that month, never mind the season or any other overblown nonsense.
                    It wasn't overrated by me, owing to the fact that my then girlfriend was a Manchester United fan and was in a very good mood that night.

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                      Originally posted by Eggchaser View Post
                      It wasn't overrated by me, owing to the fact that my then girlfriend was a Manchester United fan and was in a very good mood that night.
                      I'm hoping that you gave her 90 minutes of relative tedium but then a fantastic climax.

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                        Originally posted by That Night In Barcelona View Post
                        Sounds like reading one of your post match comments when Van Gaal was Man Utd manager.
                        Eh? The big problem that they had was that they couldn't break down the tactics that their opponents employed against them, and that that people were having an overreaction to not swatting away a series of "minnows" who were all in the top 30 richest clubs in Europe, and kitted out with accordingly. A situation so pronounced that one of these teams actually won the fucking league.

                        Anyway, curious as to how in the name of God that Barcelona team were so celebrated, and what all this fuss about Cruyff and the dream team was about, I decided that one data point wasn't enough, I watched the full game of barcelona's 3-1 win over Juventus in the semi finals, (Highlights Here and the highlights of the 1-0 juventus win in the second leg.

                        Firstly I've got to say that the introduction of the Backpass rule is somewhere between Electricity and penicillin in the list of leaps forward in civilization. Secondly while we're only a couple of months away from Peter Schmeichel inventing Goalkeeping, it's the refereeing that is the next most obvious thing. People get too caught up in the warcrimes that referees commit against their team to notice that if footballers had improved as much over the last 30 years as referees, then they'd all be able to fucking fly. The Number of passages of play that are ended by players wildly hacking their opponent, with the referee waving play on is extraordinary.

                        So the good points first. The Third goal is a thing of utter beauty, and Hristo Stoichkov was a really good player for the early 1990's (and watching old videos it seems that when people say "brilliant" about players in the good old days, what they actually mean is "has good balance. and a touch of acceleration" That becomes really obvious in the brief moments where Juventus give Baggio the ball. He's basically the preliminary sketch in the iterative design process that is going to eventually lead to Lionel Messi.) And If you retreat to your final third and don't interfere with them in any way, Barcelona can pass the ball very nicely if ponderously slowly around the other two thirds of the field. this is apparently revolutionary.

                        On the downside, the Juventus Goal is Phil Jones-tastic. It's even Wes brown and Fabien Barthez levels of comic duo gold. They're big into diving looking for penalties, but they're not very good at it. (They did it four times, and they got nowhere.) They're pretty psychotically violent. This is why Amor and Zubizaretta were suspended from the final, but check out Koeman's impression of Ben Thatcher on Roberto Baggio. I must admit even by the standards of Keane, Ince hughes and cantona, that incident is pretty extreme. Those players committed all sorts of atrocities that made you worry about their general mental health, but rarely two at a time, separated by mere seconds. It's also worth noting at this point that earlier in the season Stoichkov picked up a Six month ban for assaulting a referee which was later reduced to two months. He did apologize for it later, and by later, I mean last month. The Baggio Free kick before the koeman/amor unpleasantness and the juventus goal in the other leg would suggest that they didn't actually miss 'Zubi' in the final.

                        Juventus are an odd team. And by Odd, I mean I don't understand what they think they're doing. Now this was apparently not exactly a vintage Juventus team and they'd finish in their lowest league position for nearly 30 years. They Have two really eyecatching players. Baggio is brilliant, but they rarely give him the ball, and Julio Cesar has a touch of the David Luiz's about him. He's very pro-active and is always going for things, and a lot of the time he is getting there, and trying to drive the team forward. However, he gets badly caught out for the first goal, and wanders off towards the ball leaving Stoichkov unmarked in the centre of the goal, and Salinas unmarked at the back post.) and he gets tricked by Stoichkov for the second goal, though in fairness, I couldn't believe that he was able to score that goal. Toto Schillachi must have been suffering from the worst case of Imposter syndrome at this point. It's their tactics though that were the most puzzling. The did quite well in the first game when they pressed a bit, but in the second half they completely retreated from the game and fell deeper and deeper.

                        So ultimately it's hard to know what is the most eyecatching difference between the Dream team and the barcelona teams that followed. It's tempting to focus on the Psychotic violence, or the sheer lack of athleticism of the players, or their technical inferiority to modern players, but those are common to all teams at the the time. The big difference is that these players are obviously constructing these moves as they go along, and there's no real system to what they are doing. They've managed to get to the level of development where they can pass the ball around to each other when they're near their own goal, but once they get into crowded areas or if they're closed down it all kind of falls apart, and that's where current teams excel. They kind of have an idea in their heads, but are struggling with the implementation.

                        I can't help feeling that it reinforces the impression I already had that cruyff claiming all the credit for Barcelona, is a bit like Orville and Wilbur Wright claiming to have built the Space shuttle.
                        Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 13-12-2018, 15:00.

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                          The space shuttle wasn't, strictly, capable of self-powered flight. It was a sodding great glider strapped to a rocket. The Wright brothers would probably have looked at it and sniffed derisively.

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                            so what were those massive bloody engines, and the huge tank of hydrogen for?

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                              Originally posted by tracteurgarçon View Post
                              I'm hoping that you gave her 90 minutes of relative tedium but then a fantastic climax.
                              If only...

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                                Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
                                so what were those massive bloody engines, and the huge tank of hydrogen for?
                                Getting the space shuttle into space. But they weren't part of the space shuttle. They were, as Rogin said, the rocket that the space shuttle was strapped to.

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                                    The SSMEs didn't provide enough thrust on their own to get the stack into space. That is what the Solid Rocket Boosters were for - they provided 83% of the thrust up until separation at T+2.07. Then the SSMEs took her the rest of the way to MECO. Although they provided welcome additional thrust, the SSMEs were used for steering and also throttled back or forwards to control the acceleration, something the SRBs can't do - once they lit, they stayed lit. The throttle down for Max Q (point of maximum aerodynamic force) and subsequent throttle up is what helped blow Challenger up.

                                    Fun fact. The SSMEs lit at T-6.6 because if the hold down bolts blew at the point, the stack would collapse on itself due to lack of thrust. The SSMEs took 3 seconds to produce 90% thrust, and the further three second delay was to check the SSMEs were working properly and allow the stack to return to vertical.

                                    Still... football, eh? Cuh!

                                    And I only had to check a couple of those numbers.

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                                      I'll have to side with TAB here. The space shuttle had three main engines. The bloody big tube in the middle contained the liquid fuel for those engines. The solid rocket boosters on the side did provide most of the thrust, but the engines did a fair bit of the lifting, and indeed were used to exit the atmosphere and enter orbit, the side rockets having been discarded.
                                      The shuttle also had engines to move about in orbit (and enable them to get back).
                                      Only in the final stages of landing does it resemble a glider.

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                                        Yes, but they definitely exist. (The figure I saw for the SRB's is 71% but either figure is ridiculous) The Russian version, the Buran didn't have engines on the orbiter, but that only flew once. The Russians Looked at the US building the Shuttle and were really confused. They couldn't figure out what the Americans were building it for, and assumed that they must have a really good reason for doing it, so they built their own version, in the hope that the reason would become apparent. They Built it, launched it, and realised that it was completely fucking pointless. On the plus side they now had a really good heavy rocket.

                                        The Big problem with the Shuttle ultimately was that You were launching 100, 000 kg to LEO to deliver a 22,000 kg of satellite. It didn't make any sense. Also Rogin, technially, "Shuttle" refers to everything in that picture, the white spaceplane bit in the middle is called an orbiter.
                                        Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 13-12-2018, 23:21.

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                                          This thread has blossomed.

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                                            And looking at them now, the thing you notice about the 1980s rockets is how slow they are compared to the modern ones...

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                                              And how much they smoke.

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                                                Or how temperamental they were

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                                                  re. Baggio above, who were the influences on his playing style? Zico maybe (in his Serie A phase)?

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                                                    I don't know. This video would certainly suggest so. My God he was good George Best or cruyff perhaps, Maradona as he got slightly older. but I don't know how much he'd have seen of the first two. He's really fast, really light, flies across the ground, can change direction at a whim, and the ball is his friend. There's a moment in the first game where he picks up the ball in his own half and just flies over the ground past three players like Giggs against arsenal a couple of years down the line, or Messi all the time, before being brutally hammered to the ground on the edge of the box. It is a beautiful piece of poetry in motion, and it completely out of place in the rest of the game. Aside from the amount that people move around, the most obvious difference in the physical characteristics of the players is to do with balance. If you showed them a clip of Mo Salah's goal against Napoli the other night, they'd think he was using magic.
                                                    Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 14-12-2018, 00:09.

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