The Smartest people on Earth

[Patrick Thistle]

For the record, I'm not cheering it. But I've seen the reaction where he is being hailed as a martyr for the faith and I don't agree with that.

We could argue until the cows come home about what the Bible does or doesn't say. But the same hardline Christians who cite those verses in Romans to justify ICE locking children in cages seem to have forgotten about it when talking about this guy.

Again for the record, I don't want to see anyone dead. Equally though I don't have to show much sympathy.

[DCI Harry Batt]

If no-one died, we'd be buggered.

[DCI Harry Batt]

I heard elsewhere that some Indian police have invaded the island "to locate the body". Bastards.

Seems that was premature. Which is good news, at least.

[NickSTFU]

With Hot Pepsi and AHC on this. There's nothing positive in this story: not in the missionary's beyond-foolish attempt to infiltrate this community, nor in the barbaric way in which he was dispatched.

Barbaric as in...?

[Bizarre Löw Triangle]

The thousands of people who die crossing militarised borders to get to a place of safety are victims of barbarism not this proselytising prick whose ideology is genocidal and whose presence was a material danger.

[anton pulisov]

Where is the evidence they are not peaceful people?

You know what I meant

They used to be peaceful towards strangers, now they are not, based on how strangers treated then previously

[adams house cat]

There are parallels with native americans here.

[Tactical Genius]

So much to say here,

Hot Pepsi

Obviously, colonialism and other attempts to “civilise” these types of communities usually ends extremely badly.

Usually?
Should that mean always

But taking delight in the death of a delusional idiot while romanticizing non-industrialized cultures doesn’t help anybody.

Looks like he wasn't delusional. Like 95% of people active on Social media, he is an attention seeking twat. I think this episode actually helps the North Sentinel people as it will give other idiots second thoughts about going over there and bothering them.
Especially where the Indian government have made it clear that not only will they not come to their aid, but your body will probably be left to rot.

Uncontacted or isolated people will probably end-up having to deal with the rest of the world sooner or later - climate change, plastic in the ocean

But who says they haven't, they are constantly harassed by westerners sailing in their waters and gawking at them like monkeys at a safari park or by helicopters and planes. I believe they have a fair idea or what the outside world is offering and they just are not interested. I cannot see why this is such an issue and they just can't be left alone

so maybe there should be a plan on how to do that in the least destructive way possible. I don’t know whose job that should be, but it certainly shouldn’t be attempted by missionaries or enthusiastic amateurs.

It should be nobody's job, just leave them alone and respect their right to self-determination.

Jah Womble

nor in the barbaric way in which he was dispatched.

Again, not barbaric, but smart. They clearly realise their only chance of survival is to demonstate any intruder would be fucked up big style or the place will be overrun by thrill seeking trustafarians in no time. This is what kept the Europeans out of the African interior until the late 19th Century.

Anton

You know what I meant

They used to be peaceful towards strangers, now they are not, based on how strangers treated then previously

I really don't, i'm not trying to be funny here but the Andamanese (and North Sentinelese in particular) have been known to be hostile to outsiders for at least a 1000 years. Even Marco Polo wrote about these guys.

I guess their Scepticism on the outside world is down to their location. The island chain is strategically located between the Indian Subcontinent and the rest of South-East Asia so their encounters with outsiders were mainly Soldiers going to/ from War.

TN Pandit, the Indian Anthropologist who has spent more time with these people than anyone else living describes them as peaceful and friendly people as long as you do not overstay your welcome.

This is a good read.
https://theamericanscholar.org/the-l.../#.W_6lxWj7Tid

[Tactical Genius]

There are parallels with native americans here.

Really, according to the Thanksgiving plays, the Native Americans helped the Pilgrims when they struggled for food and they all lived happily ever after.

[Evariste Euler Gauss]

Whatever the moral pros and cons of the primitive existence of the Sentinelese people and their murderous dealings with any outsiders who by accident or design come into contact with them, it's great that the laws which protect them and their island from intruders have the incidental benefit, for humanity at large, of protecting dozens of square miles of rainforest from destruction. Not enough to save us from apocalypse of course, as the Amazon and other rainforests are destroyed at a catastrophic rate, but the best result that can be had for that particular piece of land.

[Duncan Gardner]

their murderous dealings with any outsiders

Is there a case for self-defence, or military action?

To explain that rather clumsy point- they're likely aware that Whitey etc. can spread disease. Deterring his mates from returning looks rational to me

[Gangster Octopus]

You thinking of converting them to the Orange cause Dunc?

[Duncan Gardner]

No, I'd relocate the offenders to Rotherham. Double the average IQ in both places etc etc

[Evariste Euler Gauss]

Is there a case for self-defence,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentinelese

The incidents of The Primrose (1981) and Two Fishermen (2006) demonstrate how broadly they practise "self-defence". It's murder by any civilised standard, but i don't really want to get involved in any discussion of the rights and wrongs of that. I'm just happy to note the ecological benefits to the planet.

[Tactical Genius]

Whatever the moral pros and cons of the primitive existence of the Sentinelese people and their murderous dealings with any outsiders who by accident or design come into contact with them, it's great that the laws which protect them and their island from intruders have the incidental benefit, for humanity at large, of protecting dozens of square miles of rainforest from destruction. Not enough to save us from apocalypse of course, as the Amazon and other rainforests are destroyed at a catastrophic rate, but the best result that can be had for that particular piece of land.

So the preservation of a few hectares of plant life is more important than the preservation of people? and I don't consider them as primitive, what criteria are you basing this on?

[Tactical Genius]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentinelese

The incidents of The Primrose (1981) and Two Fishermen (2006) demonstrate how broadly they practise "self-defence". It's murder by any civilised standard, but i don't really want to get involved in any discussion of the rights and wrongs of that. I'm just happy to note the ecological benefits to the planet.

Why don't you, I would be really like to understand your thinking on this?

[Evariste Euler Gauss]

So the preservation of a few hectares of plant life is more important than the preservation of people?

The preservation of rainforests is, in the long term, essential for the preservation of the human race (billions of people) as a whole. All human life is valuable of course, though I'm afraid I couldn't shed too many tears for people who I know would kill me, just for being there, if I accidentally drifted on to their island.

I don't consider them as primitive, what criteria are you basing this on?

The word "primitive" isn't supposed to be a value judgment or a criticism of them, TG (nor does it imply anything about their character or intelligence). Only a tiny number of people advance their own level of culture or technology beyond what they inherit, and in any case such advancement is double-edged both in terms of benefit and ethics. But just as a descriptive statement of fact, the Sentinelese are primitive in the sense that (as far as we know) they don't have agriculture or any technology beyond the very simple, never mind modern medicine or all the culture that follows the invention of writing. In terms of material and cultural development, they seem to be more or less where humanity as a whole was around 12,000 years ago, before the agricultural revolution had occurred anywhere.

Why don't you, I would be really like to understand your thinking on this?

The question whether the killing of harmless fishermen with no hostile intent who just wanted some crabs and drifted into their path, or their apparent intention to kill a harmless crew of a stranded ship who had no intention to visit them at all and also no hostile intent, can be justified by some bigger picture "defence of territory" consideration which justifies such indiscriminate violence is one that I'm sure would be fruitful ground for 1st year undergrad philosopy essays on ethics, but I don't feel much interest in it.

[Duncan Gardner]

EEG- my point/ question was whether their standard response- ie, any other human contact is by definition NOT harmless- could be justified.

Like you, I won't stray into philosophy. My last involvement with specialists was there was chairing a discussion about non-gender specific loos at a Green Conference. There was also the incident of the photo of a senior OTF-er dry-humping his pushbike. It was neither big nor clever etc

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

The Andaman Islands feature in Sherlock Holmes and the Sign of Four. Even back then the story was that there was that there were some of these islands where they killed visitors pretty much on sight. I think the plot hinges on a prison on one of them. (some of the references to the external world in those stories are hilarious. The way the mormons are described probably wouldn't go down too well in Utah)

[Tactical Genius]

The preservation of rainforests is, in the long term, essential for the preservation of the human race (billions of people) as a whole.

Hmmm. Ok.
You do understand the only reason that Island is so lush is because the local inhabitants have a zero tolerance policy of outsiders. A lot of the rainforest on neighbouring islands had been chopped down to disastrous effect. With this in mind, I thought you would be on the side of such robust care taking.

All human life is valuable of course

yeah..........

though I'm afraid I couldn't shed too many tears for people who I know would kill me, just for being there, if I accidentally drifted on to their island.

Your two examples are really poor in my opinion.
Regarding the Primrose, look at it from their perspective. A big massive ship docks off your coast, no big deal as I am sure they have seen numerous ships sail past. However, this one doesn't move for a few days so you fear an invasion force so you mobilise some soldiers to take care of business.

Question: how long would the US allow an unidentified ship park off the southern tip of Manhattan before they blew it out of the water?
Answer: a lot less than the couple of days before the Islanders started mobilising the troops.

The same with the fishermen, How did they know their intent?
Do you think this is the first and only time fishermen have been involved in illegally ferrying people to these islands?

The word "primitive" isn't supposed to be a value judgement or a criticism of them

Please correct me if I am wrong, but is there any other application of the word?

But just as a descriptive statement of fact, the Sentinelese are primitive in the sense that (as far as we know) they don't have agriculture or any technology beyond the very simple, never mind modern medicine or all the culture that follows the invention of writing. In terms of material and cultural development, they seem to be more or less where humanity as a whole was around 12,000 years ago, before the agricultural revolution had occurred anywhere.

That's the patronising Eurocentric mindset used to legitimise colonialism and neo-colonialism of the last 150 years (Including the occupation of Ireland by the British for the best part of 1000 years). " You know these lazy simpletons have been blessed with all this fertile land and natural resources and they lack the wit to fully exploit. Let us take it off their hands and fully utilise it as god intended"

I'll break what you said down further.

(as far as we know) they don't have agriculture

Agriculture (as practices in the modern sense from the time of the Ancient Egyptians) has led to deforestation, increased desertification and climate change in the local and regional sense. Looking at the pictures of the islanders, they don't seem to be wanting for food.

or any technology beyond the very simple

They seem to have enough technology to serve their needs. Plus their arrow and javelin game is of Olympic standards.
I think you are using your European mindset where everything needs to be weaponized and used to kill as many people as possible.

never mind modern medicine

Maybe they have all the medicine they need. Again, from the sparse pictures and videos of them, they look healthier than most people living in that part of the world and doing much better than their Negrito cousins living shitty lives in ever decreasing numbers throughout Asia.

all the culture that follows the invention of writing

Many cultures thrived on knowledge being passed down orally including European where until 150 years ago, 90% of the population were illiterate.

.....can be justified by some bigger picture "defence of territory" consideration which justifies such indiscriminate violence is one that I'm sure would be fruitful ground for 1st year undergrad philosopy essays on ethics, but I don't feel much interest in it.

Harmless mistake, no hostile intent and other bullshit excuses was used numerous times in the late 19th mad colonialist rush to attack so called savage people, burn down their cities and nick their stuff.

If you read carefully on encounters their with people, they normally hide in the forest and watch you whenever you moor off their land. They only come out aggressively if you try to land or if you do not leave after a period of time. Even them, they tend to initially fire warning shots (they apparently have different types of arrows for this effect).
This shows a level of intelligence and restraint. The anthropologist who knows them much better than you and me said as such.

[Tactical Genius]

The Andaman Islands feature in Sherlock Holmes and the Sign of Four. Even back then the story was that there was that there were some of these islands where they killed visitors pretty much on sight. I think the plot hinges on a prison on one of them. (some of the references to the external world in those stories are hilarious. The way the mormons are described probably wouldn't go down too well in Utah)

Berba, the main Andaman Island was a penal colony where disobedient Indians were sent to reflect on the errors of their ways.

The place has had this had this reputation for milenia hence why various Indian and Indonesian kingdoms gave the place a wide berth when sailing back and forth to wage war/trade.

[Evariste Euler Gauss]

Jesus Christ, TG, how many of my point have you deliberately ignored there?

I haven't got time to repeat them all, but just to pick up two points.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but is there any other application of the word?

Yes there is. As an objective description of the level of complexity or advancement in development.

That's the patronising Eurocentric mindset used to legitimise colonialism and neo-colonialism of the last 150 years (Including the occupation of Ireland by the British for the best part of 1000 years). " You know these lazy simpletons have been blessed with all this fertile land and natural resources and they lack the wit to fully exploit. Let us take it off their hands and fully utilise it as god intended"

Jesus Christ. You are completely ignoring all of the following in my post
(a) "nor does it imply anything about their character or intelligence",

(b) "Only a tiny number of people advance their own level of culture or technology beyond what they inherit" and

(c) "in any case such advancement is double-edged both in terms of benefit and ethics"

Essentially, you are arguing a position you imagine me to hold (in the face of evidence to the contrary in my post), rather than the position I carefully explained. I haven't got time to deal with that.

[Gert from the Well]

It could be argued that a 'primitive' hunter-gatherer society has many advantages over more 'advanced' agricultural ones. The anthropologist James C. Scott has argued that in many ways the adoption of agriculture may have been a regressive step. Hunter-gatherer societies have a number of advantages which are lost when humanity moves to the cultivation and domestication of plants and animals. They have a more varied diet, as opposed to the one or two food stuffs of agriculture, their life is less labour intensive, they are not tied to a single location and more importantly their societies are less hierarchical. With agriculture comes cities, debt and the creation of a non-productive class who benefit from the exploitation of the farming masses. This to me is one very good reason to ensure that there Sentinelese are not contaminated by modernity. The fact that they continue to survive or even prosper, may in a large part, be due to this self-enforced isolation from the rest of the world. I do not see how they will benefit from exposure to the stupidity of organised religion.

Apologies for the manner that this written, but I've just started a MA in Philosophy so this style of writing is becoming second nature (at least I've not used footnotes!).

You can read more of this in Scott's book Against the Grain which is not only a very good read but also shares a title with a great Bad Religion lp.

[Lang Spoon]

Of course.


https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/1...nelese-people/

[Toby Gymshorts]

It is time The Spectator got in the fucking bin.