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    Corporate Welfare

    We've touched on this on the Trump thread, but I think the issue is worthy of its own discussion.

    Now that the Amazon "HQ2" contest is over, with Crystal City, Virginia (by DC National Airport) and Long Island City, NY (on the western shore of Queens across from the UN) having been selected as the "winners", many of the other bidders are revealing just what they were offering Bezos.

    And it is wild.

    Atlanta, for instance.

    https://twitter.com/bluestein/status/1062684322552000513
    Last edited by ursus arctos; 14-11-2018, 16:10.

    #2
    If I may piggyback on this more-appropriate thread, I touched on the Calgary Olympics non-binding plebiscite yesterday. The 'No' side won, so Calgary will be dropping its bid.
    Good on them, I say. The Olympics are a crooked rat-hole down which good money is pissed.

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      #3
      I was chatting to a man about the impact Amazon has on Seattle in terms of local legislature and that in an excellent dive bar called Mecca Cafe. Unfortunately the place was so good, and the bar tender so attentive, I can't remember a fucking word he said. I think he may have been talking about in increased tax rate at some point, used to combat homelessness, but that wasn't the main thrust of his point. Then I got chatting to a Native American about when he hitch-hiked around Britain. He went to Nottingham, just like Reed. Weird.

      Anyway, I wish I had something constructive to add to this thread, but alas, yet again, I don't.

      Do go to the Mecca Cafe if you're ever in Seattle though. It's in Lower Queen Anne.

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        #4
        Interesting comparative analysis of the incentives here, including Foxconn.

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          #5
          Originally posted by Ginger Yellow View Post
          Interesting comparative analysis of the incentives here, including Foxconn.
          I can't really understand that, but it sounds like it was a really good deal for the municipalities. That doesn't sound right.

          I'm glad I'm not living in Arlington anymore. When I lived there it was a bit scuzzy in parts and somewhat affordable but starting to gentrify. Now it's as if the whole place is a Whole Foods parking lot. This will just amp that up even further.

          I still do most of my shopping through Amazon, to be shamefully honest.

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            #6
            I can't really understand that, but it sounds like it was a really good deal for the municipalities.
            Not really. It shows that (if you ignore Foxconn), NY in particular paid way over the national odds for such a deal, though it does have a history of doing so.

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              #7
              I’m not sure that I understand NYC’s reasoning in providing per job incentives for ten years.

              I can see covering more than just the first year (all that Virginia is doing), but as he notes, it seems unlikely that incentives for years 5-10 will really move the needle for the recipient, while they stick the municipality with a longer term commitment.

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                #8
                Originally posted by Ginger Yellow View Post
                Not really. It shows that (if you ignore Foxconn), NY in particular paid way over the national odds for such a deal, though it does have a history of doing so.
                But it seems to usually be just a small percent of what it gets back. Or I guess I don't understand it. Either way, just comparing it to the national average doesn't really show whether it's a good idea or not because the national average might be way too high or too low.

                Probably too high, I'm guessing. I've little doubt that these deals - like stadium deals - are hardly ever a good value for the municipalities because the logic behind them always seems to be based on vague promises and emotional appeals rather than clear data - never a good sign. But they make sense for the politicians. The buildings and, perhaps, jobs they create are tangible and obvious to voters, while the cost is spread out over many different other priorities over a long time so that's harder to see or feel. I don't think any politician has ever been elected based on charts and graphs. (although Ross Perot tried).


                It will certainly be a boost for National Airport, in case it needed one.
                Last edited by Hot Pepsi; 14-11-2018, 17:17.

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                  #9
                  I can see covering more than just the first year (all that Virginia is doing), but as he notes, it seems unlikely that incentives for years 5-10 will really move the needle for the recipient, while they stick the municipality with a longer term commitment.
                  Maybe the idea is that you can hold the company to the deal for longer, so they don't a la Foxconn, walk back on their promises once they've got the cash.

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                    #10
                    Oh look, they're also getting a federal tax break.

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by EIM View Post
                      I was chatting to a man about the impact Amazon has on Seattle in terms of local legislature and that in an excellent dive bar called Mecca Cafe. Unfortunately the place was so good, and the bar tender so attentive, I can't remember a fucking word he said. I think he may have been talking about in increased tax rate at some point, used to combat homelessness, but that wasn't the main thrust of his point. Then I got chatting to a Native American about when he hitch-hiked around Britain. He went to Nottingham, just like Reed. Weird.

                      Anyway, I wish I had something constructive to add to this thread, but alas, yet again, I don't.

                      Do go to the Mecca Cafe if you're ever in Seattle though. It's in Lower Queen Anne.
                      Seattle's voters passed a head tax on big tech firms to combat the homelessness population. The city council promptly undid the law. Disgusting.

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                        #12
                        Ah yeah, there you go. That was it. Ta.

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                          #13
                          I can sort of see the point of corporate welfare if you're trying to do some proper urban regeneration. I could see some value, perhaps, in the federal government offering a honking tax break to Amazon, and paying for massive infrastrcture upgrades, to put their HQ2 in Parkersburg, West Virginia, or maybe Flint, Michigan.

                          If there are two places on earth that don't need state funds to "revive" them, though, they're going to be the banks of the East River in New York, and the Virginia side of the Potomac.

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                            #14
                            Yeah, but federal money to help a place that actually needs it is “redistribution,” and apparently we don’t do that in this country.

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                              #15
                              SB's point is spot on. There are a lot of places in America that need the injection of employment and money more than Crystal City and Queens. Unfortunately they have nothing for Amazon to extort from them.

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                                #16
                                The NYT looks at just why Amazon bailed on Long Island City

                                An examination of the deal’s collapse showed that Amazon badly misjudged how it would be received in New York, apparently because the company has rarely ventured into such a raucous political arena as it has pursued a breakneck expansion in recent years.

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                                  #17
                                  The Beeb's take: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47252045

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                                    #18
                                    I can't get past the idea of Vernon Boulevard being the "local high street".

                                    Last edited by ursus arctos; 16-02-2019, 17:51.

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                                      #19
                                      That article seems rather too sympathetic to the small businesses that were hoping to piggyback on Amazon being there, rather than the taxpayers who'd have been giving Amazon 3bn bucks.

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                                        #20
                                        Given the source, I'm somewhat surprised that they didn't quote a real estate speculator who got burned after buying property after the announcement at inflated prices.

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                                          #21
                                          Wouldn't that be a tragedy.

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                                            #22
                                            The real victims here are the Amazon executives who bought Long Island City property before the initial decision was made public (there were at least two).

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                                              #23
                                              The real victims here, surely, are all the other wealthy companies hoping to blackmail municipalities into giving them subsidies.

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                                                #24
                                                Except that many of the cities who "lost out" to Long Island City are falling over themselves to make Amazon offers.

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                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                                                  The real victims here are the Amazon executives who bought Long Island City property before the initial decision was made public (there were at least two).
                                                  Now, "that's" a news story I would like more info on.

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