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    "Cretins"

    I find it interesting how often I still see and hear "cretins" or "cretinous" being used on TV or in newspapers when words like "spazz" or "mong" might struggle to get past the editor.

    A "cretin" in (outdated) medical terms is someone who was affected developmentally because of a thyroid deficiency in childhood. It's not really used by clinicians any more, like spastic or mongoloid. And yet it persists as a term of abuse.

    I wonder if it's because thyroid deficiency is very rare and people just don't realise it describes a disability, which is why the usage persists.

    #2
    I don't think anyone knows the origin of the word. I always assumed it was a corruption of Chretien.

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      #3
      I had no idea either. Americans pronounce it like Cretan

      (those are two separate pieces of information)

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        #4
        Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
        I wonder if it's because thyroid deficiency is very rare and people just don't realise it describes a disability, which is why the usage persists.
        Probably this. I'd say it's a pejorative that's so far removed from its source that it would be a real work of gymnastics to even feign offense. And I speak as a thyroid deficient.

        Similarly, every now and then, someone object to 'rule of thumb', as it [apparently] referred to the thickness of a switch you could use to whip your wife in Victorian times. Apparently if you carelessly use the phrase today, a Victorian woman gets a whoopin'.

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          #5
          I'm sensitive to it because several years ago a woman I know with a thyroid deficiency had an absolute go at me about using it. I was utterly mortified by the experience.

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            #6
            I've always tried to avoid the word, but do Brits use the French pronunciation?

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              #7
              No, just a short e. Like "Crettins"

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                #8
                Bill Safire debunked the "rule of thumb" etymology 20 years ago.

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                  #9
                  Good to know.

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
                    I find it interesting how often I still see and hear "cretins" or "cretinous" being used on TV or in newspapers when words like "spazz" or "mong" might struggle to get past the editor.

                    A "cretin" in (outdated) medical terms is someone who was affected developmentally because of a thyroid deficiency in childhood. It's not really used by clinicians any more, like spastic or mongoloid. And yet it persists as a term of abuse.

                    I wonder if it's because thyroid deficiency is very rare and people just don't realise it describes a disability, which is why the usage persists.
                    I don't think 'spastic' or 'mongoloid' are used by clinicians any more. (Or was that what you were stating?)

                    The latter - as we discovered in that recent thread about the late Dolores O'Riordan - is still deemed 'okay' by some as a derogatory.

                    'Cretin' is a tough one, for the reasons cited upthread. A friend of mine once objected on similar grounds to a TV show I produced years ago called Mental: I saw his point, but hadn't myself issued the title, so couldn't do much about it. 'Mental' and 'crazy' (ie, to describe a high emotional state) seem somehow to have escaped this kind of censure completely. (But we could take this to the nth degree and question the use of words like 'stupid'...)

                    In my school days, the word 'cripple' seemed to abound almost as much as 'spastic' - which always seemed an odd one to me logically, since in many cases it describes only a temporary condition. Ugly as its use was, like.

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                      #11
                      Yeah that was my point. A doctor wouldn't say "Your child's a cretin" to a parent any more, given how it's such an insult, even if it was medically correct.

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                        #12
                        Yes, apologies - I can see that that was what you meant now. I think it's safe to say that most of us would be fairly shocked to hear a professional use either of those expressions.

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                          #13
                          'Le cretin des Alpes' was used by visiting French posh types to describe Alpine populations of little intelligence (from their point of view) and describing them essentially simpletons.

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                            #14
                            It's weird that we used all these insults all the time as kids, and had literally no idea where they came from or why they were offensive. I think the weirdest one was "flid", and it was only decades later when I realised why it was offensive.

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                              #15
                              'cretin' is widely used in French now, it has lost its earlier connotations.

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                                #16
                                In a similar vein, "idiot" (IQ 0-25), "imbecile" (26-50) and "moron" (51-70) were once used as professional terms - my mother claims to have seen one of her (social work) clients described as a moron on official paperwork.
                                Moron is now perhaps a bigger insult than the other two, despite being the most intelligent of the three.

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                                  #17
                                  I was recently surprised to read a report relating to a client which included the phrase "extreme retardation of educational ability". Severe learning difficulty is the more common phrase.

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                                    #18
                                    Well SB inspired me to Google "flid" and now I feel very ashamed of my younger self

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                                      #19
                                      I haven't heard "cretin" used for years (outside of Ramones records). As you were.

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                                        #20
                                        I think you can come across those three descriptions being used together when talking about old restrictions on voting.

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                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Moonlight shadow View Post
                                          'Le cretin des Alpes' was used by visiting French posh types to describe Alpine populations of little intelligence (from their point of view) and describing them essentially simpletons.
                                          Alpine folk often suffered from goiters due to lack of iodine, no? Maybe it started as a physiological description then became an insult.

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                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
                                            I find it interesting how often I still see and hear "cretins" or "cretinous" being used on TV or in newspapers when words like "spazz" or "mong" might struggle to get past the editor.

                                            A "cretin" in (outdated) medical terms is someone who was affected developmentally because of a thyroid deficiency in childhood. It's not really used by clinicians any more, like spastic or mongoloid. And yet it persists as a term of abuse.

                                            I wonder if it's because thyroid deficiency is very rare and people just don't realise it describes a disability, which is why the usage persists.
                                            Yeah, we should definitely not be using words like that.

                                            I've been consciously trying, over the last year or so, to eliminate from my vocabulary any language that could be construed as ableist - both those related to physical or mental disability ("cretin", "idiot", "moron" etc), and those associated with pyschiatric disorders ("psychopath", "sociopath", "insane", "mental", "mad") but also stuff without clinically-defined etymologies but that are clearly also ableist in sense ("crazy", "crank", "stupid", "dumb", "lame").

                                            Doing this has sort of hit home how many of our insults or dismissive remarks take a form that links people's value as a person to their mental and physical capacity and health. It's also kinda interesting cos if you can't just dismiss something or someone as "stupid" you have to actually articulate yourself better - cos there's only so many times you can substitute "ridiculous" for <ableist slur>.
                                            Last edited by Bizarre Löw Triangle; 13-09-2018, 19:11.

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                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
                                              Alpine folk often suffered from goiters due to lack of iodine, no? Maybe it started as a physiological description then became an insult.
                                              And Spoony cracks the code in just 21 posts.

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                                                #24
                                                I dunno if I’m being chided there or not. Paranoia was more fun when I still got stoned.

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                                                  #25
                                                  I didn't know that "cretin" had that connotation. Probably best avoided on those grounds, though it is very funny when repeatedly used by Larry David in the Woody Allen film Whatever Works. "Woody Allen" is also probably a phrase best avoided these days.

                                                  Interestingly:
                                                  A friend of mine once objected on similar grounds to a TV show I produced years ago called Mental: I saw his point, but hadn't myself issued the title, so couldn't do much about it. 'Mental' and 'crazy' (ie, to describe a high emotional state) seem somehow to have escaped this kind of censure completely. (But we could take this to the nth degree and question the use of words like 'stupid'...)
                                                  I had the opposite experience - a show I worked on had a running sketch (not written by me) using the word "mental" as part of a catchphrase, and appaz there was an upstairs meltdown that meant it could never be repeated (it was a bit shite in all honesty).

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