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    Advanced multiplication

    My wife and I are very lucky to have an adorable two year old son. We are at an age were our friends and acquaintances are producing children left, right and centre. A number of them have gone for a second or third.

    Everybody we talk to assumes that we are going for a second child in the near future. My wife's boss has even hired another staff number to prepare for maternity cover. However, we really aren't sure. Whilst we love and enjoy James, we have found parenting exhausting and challenging. The received wisdom is that two are significantly more than double the work.

    I know from friends that have struggled to conceive that it is no certainty that we would be lucky enough to have a second if we tried. I'm hoping for anecdotes, advice and studies from the broad experiences of OTF.

    #2
    We have two. Never regretted it for a day. And yes, when they're 0 to 4 or 5, it's defo more than twice the work. But they have each other, and will for life, which will hopefully be nice for them both. We'd never even considered having one, but we chatted (very briefly) about having three.

    If you believe, as they say, that you regret the things you don't do more than the things you do: you someday may regret not having a second. But I'd guess you're far less likely to regret having a second once they're here.

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      #3
      Obviously have as many kids as you want/can/afford.

      Having said that, we have one, will stick to one (too old now in any case) and in my opinion all the myths about only children being withdrawn/dominating/selfish/bored/etc. are just that: myths.

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        #4
        I have 4 and in my experience boys are so much easier to parent than girls. My daughter is now 26, and we have three boys who are 19 and 17 (18 months apart) and 6.

        I love my daughter dearly but would readily swap her for triplet teenage boys with ADHD for an easier life and less drama.

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          #5
          I have heard of people suggesting that to "only" have one child is some kind of epitome of selfishness, but that sounds like utter bollocks to me. We have two, but only one of them has my DNA* - mrs hoc and I did talk about having a second (of "ours") but in the end concluded that we were absolutely fine as we were. Obviously it is absolutely your decision. If you feel like you don;t really want another one, then that's entirely fine. It's perfectly reasonable and understandable decision

          (* Obviously this means I have only been through the bringing-up-a-baby process once, and to be honest that felt like enough. There are wonderful things about a baby, but there are also fucking exhausting things)

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            #6
            Do what you want - it's nobody's business but your own.

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              #7
              What VT said.
              After we had the cub, P talked about another, but I wasn't keen. By the time I'd come round a bit, the oxytocin had worn off and P wasn't bothered any more. So we stuck to one.
              The cub is, I've been told many times (all unprompted) a thoughtful, happy, well adjusted little boy who is universally liked by both his peers and teachers etc. I'd tend to agree even though I just spent 7 whole weeks of summer with him.
              Whereas all my friends who had siblings close in age spent their childhoods either bullying or being bullied until they were old enough to know better.
              I've got 2 sisters, 14 years apart (I'm in the middle) and we always got on. So you know, there's no right answer.
              Last edited by hobbes; 12-09-2018, 11:50.

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                #8
                My parents decided to present myself and my three year younger brother with another bundle of joy when I was eleven.

                In 1971 just ahead of the recession driven by the twin attacks on living standards by both Ted Heath and the oil crisis.

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                  #9
                  Selfish bastards.

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                    #10
                    What hobbes said, basically... I'm an only child - my parents did want a second child but that didn't work out, and my experience of mates with siblings was exactly as he described: all-out domestic war until the end of primary school, or at least that's the view I got of it back then! So, yeah, sometimes it felt a bit crappy whacking a football against the garage wall on my own, without anyone to aim my shots at, but on the other hand I've always been happy doing stuff on my own too. Maybe it did colour my attitude towards deciding how many children would be 'ideal' for us, that could well be the case.

                    I hope VL jnr will experience a similar childhood to mind, in terms of the positive memories of a happy family environment: he does sometimes mention that it'd be nice to have a brother or a sister but, well, that's not going to happen. We would have been delighted to have another child but there were some medical setbacks along the way and we are very happy with the way things are working out with the little fella. And, as has been mentioned upthread, we also felt knackered enough with just the one and 'exhausting and challenging' is right! What an experience from day one to now, so many beautiful moments to balance out the "How many times have I told you to <xyz>..." episodes and of course we wouldn't change it for the world.

                    There is no right or wrong decision, that's the key thing. Everyone's circumstances are different so whether you have one, two, five, however many: it's a personal choice.

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                      #11
                      I never really got the theory that having a second is more than twice the work/trouble. (My boys are 7 and 9.) You've got some level of experience and infrastructure/financial investment in terms of 'things' you'll need, and soon enough they'll entertain each other and have a play mate on hand.

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by seand View Post
                        I never really got the theory that having a second is more than twice the work/trouble.
                        I think it holds true for the first few years, when you're hands-full with a baby and there's a toddler running around with the cat by the tail. It levels out when the second is toddling around too.

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by andrew7610 View Post
                          I love my daughter dearly but would readily swap her for triplet teenage boys with ADHD for an easier life and less drama.
                          We left our dear 15-year old daughter home two weekends ago in the care of her best friend and the friend's parents. They were spending the weekend on their boat, and then having a 'back to school' breakfast for some of the girls.

                          We got home Sunday night to find the house a shambles, a good quantity of booze drunk, and my truck moved. It turns out that the best friend and her parents hadn't seen our daughter all weekend; the entire story was a sham. We really have no idea who was in our house, nor doing what. But money is missing and the spare bed in the basement is broken. The police are involved, because my truck was damaged and the teen who drove it is unlicensed. My daughter is incredulous that we're 'still going on about it' over a week later.

                          So...yeah....boys.

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by WOM View Post
                            I think it holds true for the first few years, when you're hands-full with a baby and there's a toddler running around with the cat by the tail. It levels out when the second is toddling around too.
                            When we had our second someone advised 'having one is like having a pet, having two is like running a zoo' and it did feel like that for a while, even with a 4.5 year gap between them. It settles down quickly enough and now at 20 and 15 respectively they get on really well and I'd like to think that will continue into adulthood.

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                              #15
                              We don't have kids. So the only experience I can offer is that ignore all the bastards who think they know what's best for you. People have nagged at me (and much more at my wife) for not having kids, about how we'd make great parents, about how it would be different if they were ours, how we'd not despise a 2 year old of our own when we basically despise all other 2 year olds, etc, etc. They can all fuck off, and so can anyone else who tells you what's right for you.

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                                #16
                                What SB said. There is one person in the world who wanted kids less than me. And I married her.

                                Ignore everybody else and do what you think is right for you.

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                                  #17
                                  When I met Mrs G she had a two year old. After being together for a year I told her I wasn't ready for kids at the age of 25. Two months later, she was pregnant and we moved in together 5 months later, 4 months before my eldest, her second, was born.

                                  From the moment Joshua was born in 2010 all we got was "when you having another" from friends, relatives, old acquaintances, etc, etc... We held off and off because of our house barely being big enough for the 4 of us before we moved in 2016. We then decided to not necessarily try, but also not take too many precautions, in the hope we would have a girl. Sure enough, a few weeks later and the wife was pregnant again. We were excited because, no matter what, this 3rd child would be our last and we really hoped it would be a girl (but even if not a girl then that would be it for us).

                                  At the 12 week scan we discovered that there wasn't one child there but two. In May last year my darling wife gave birth to two more boys to go with the two we already have, 7 years after we were last doting parents. They were huge and we even made a couple of coffee magazine things (£300 for someone to make up a load of bs about your semi-interesting story is not to be sniffed at) due to them allegedly being the biggest twins born in England - a claim I have never personally made.

                                  I can only offer one thing on the end of this - nothing, and I mean nothing, prepares you for twins. They are 16 months old now and they are the bloody devil. They are up all hours, they fight, they cry over you holding one and not the other, the throw things at each other, they climb on literally everything, they turn on switches, the dribble bloody everywhere. One child is an absolute breeze compared to twins. There's a moral to this story, but I'm damned if I'll ever find it.

                                  For anyone interested - a link to one of the stories (it was on about 4 sites, and in one magazine): https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-brothers.html

                                  EDIT - I think I've found the moral - don't get your heart set on only one, because it could be two and woe betide you if it does.
                                  Last edited by Simon G; 12-09-2018, 21:18.

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                                    #18
                                    about how it would be different if they were ours, how we'd not despise a 2 year old of our own when we basically despise all other 2 year olds, etc, etc
                                    Actually this turns out to be true in my experience. And even weirder, you stop despising other ones too. It's quite odd.
                                    But irrelevant of course.

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                                      #19
                                      I've largely stopped despising them since I took the decision to imagine they're all really small adults who've had quite a bit too much to drink. It's difficult to be annoyed once you've put that mental image into your own head because they just become really really funny.

                                      But SB and SP speak for me. My girlfriend's always assumed she'll want kids (or a kid at least) at some point, but still hasn't had the desire kick in yet, even though one of her friends became a mum earlier this year. I am utterly ambivalent (I like the idea of being a grandfather in forty or fifty years' time much more than I like the idea of being a father at any point in the next decade), uneasy about what sort of world we'd be bringing the thing into, and above all have no idea, if we were to discover it was happening now, how the bloody hell we'd pay for it on our current earnings. Also what country to have it in? Here, and it would be a massive pain in the arse (I have heard) to get it a UK passport (although if I eventually get my application for an Irish one sorted, it'd be all right for EU citizenship at least). But having it in the UK would involve ... well, moving to the UK before doing so. Which would also be a massive pain in the arse, unless Brexit leads to a boom in demand for non-EU-citizenship-having Latin American Spanish translators.

                                      Although the fact we live in a country where abortion isn't legal lends a tiny bit of a Russian roulette-style thrill whenever we're confident it's the right time of the month that we can do it without a little rubber thing.

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                                        #20
                                        Oh, and my girlfriend's mum died of ovarian cancer, which puts my girlfriend in a high-risk category for it. Which means at some point in the next ... while, she might actually have to literally make a decision about it (do we have a child before she has them cut out, or do we just have them cut out, or do we get some eggs frozen at massive expense in case we want to go for it later?). That's probably still a good few years off though.

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                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Sam View Post
                                          Also what country to have it in? Here, and it would be a massive pain in the arse (I have heard) to get it a UK passport .
                                          It's a breeze (relatively speaking) if you are married. This is the main reason why Mrs hoc and I got married in the first place (one month before the birth of our daughter). To get a passport for a child of a British father who wasn't married to its mother at the time of its birth is - yes - really hard work. The UK government website even uses really Victorian language like "spinster" and "illegitimate". But if you're married when its born, it is straightforward.

                                          Ironically, we did all this because Mrs hoc said "It's really important to have a British passport. I grew up in a country where I wasn't allowed to even keep hold of my passport and travelling to anywhere - even in the Warsaw pact - was really hard" and now circumstances have reached the point where I am actively working on getting a Romanian passport as it will be of more value to me than my British one.

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                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by ad hoc View Post
                                            It's a breeze (relatively speaking) if you are married. This is the main reason why Mrs hoc and I got married in the first place (one month before the birth of our daughter). To get a passport for a child of a British father who wasn't married to its mother at the time of its birth is - yes - really hard work. The UK government website even uses really Victorian language like "spinster" and "illegitimate". But if you're married when its born, it is straightforward.
                                            Which is weird given that for immigration purposes it makes no difference whether we're married or not. I mean, it would be a total pain in the bollocks to do if we wanted to move back there right now, but getting married wouldn't actually make the slightest bit of difference to that fact. (It's also weird because, y'know ... married or not, I'd still be its dad.)

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                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Sam View Post
                                              Which is weird given that for immigration purposes it makes no difference whether we're married or not. I mean, it would be a total pain in the bollocks to do if we wanted to move back there right now, but getting married wouldn't actually make the slightest bit of difference to that fact. (It's also weird because, y'know ... married or not, I'd still be its dad.)
                                              It's weird but that's the way it is. We had the same problem when my son was born. He could have a UK passport only if we were married or his mother was a UK citizen (which she ain't). The law seems to be stuck in the 19th century and shows no sign of budging.

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                                                #24
                                                Thank you all.

                                                One of the reasons I posted here is that I remember a previous thread on whether to have children or not which helped to frame my thinking. Keeping to a child free relationship is completely valid and fulfilling life option. There have been nights that I would even say it’s a better option!

                                                Neither of our families have put pressure on us to go again (which wasn’t the case for our first). The few friends that have mentioned it tend to be already at number 2 or 3. We are genuinely undecided at this point but once we make a decision we’ll stick to it.

                                                One friend is a psychotherapist and is adamant that only children have it tougher. He has two children. I can’t unpick from him how much is his belief and bias and how much is based on verifiable studies. He would be a trusted friend and given his background carries some weight in our thinking. Stories of well adjusted single children help to balance perspectives on it.

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                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by Ek weet nie View Post
                                                  We are genuinely undecided at this point but once we make a decision we’ll stick to it.
                                                  Unless you get careless and slip one past the goalie. Anyway, nothing wrong with an 'oops baby'. My dad was one, so lucky me. And L's dad and mom both have an oops sibling.

                                                  So, you know, have at 'er. (Warm regards to your missus, etc.)

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