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Amazon-ing Disgrace: US Open (tennis) 2018

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    Yes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_ATP_Tour#Singles

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      Australian Herald Sun produces an hilarious cartoon.

      "Not sexist, and definitely not racist"

      (Apparently)

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-45479954
      Last edited by Guy Profumo; 11-09-2018, 09:58.

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        I'm another non-tennis fan baffled by the 'no coaching' rule. How many sports try to impose this? If you don't want coaches communicating with players why not bar them from the arena or let them watch from behind some sort of screen? I guess that's not too practical, specially at smaller venues/tournaments. But why ban coaching from a distance anyway? how much can a coach really communicate with a few hand signals? 'Hammer her backhand side?', 'slow down your serve?' And even if you're in support of the current status quo- coaches allowed in the arena but not allowed to coach- there's a massive issue with enforcement. A scratch of the ear or chin, a left or right handed punch of the air, moving the position of glasses/hat are all surely enough to be a signal for something- even if you have another official there just to stare at the coach for two hours how the hell can you know if he's coaching or if he's just got an itchy ear?

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          Originally posted by seand View Post
          I'm another non-tennis fan baffled by the 'no coaching' rule. How many sports try to impose this? If you don't want coaches communicating with players why not bar them from the arena or let them watch from behind some sort of screen? I guess that's not too practical, specially at smaller venues/tournaments. But why ban coaching from a distance anyway? how much can a coach really communicate with a few hand signals? 'Hammer her backhand side?', 'slow down your serve?' And even if you're in support of the current status quo- coaches allowed in the arena but not allowed to coach- there's a massive issue with enforcement. A scratch of the ear or chin, a left or right handed punch of the air, moving the position of glasses/hat are all surely enough to be a signal for something- even if you have another official there just to stare at the coach for two hours how the hell can you know if he's coaching or if he's just got an itchy ear?
          British player Tara Moore made the good point that not all players can afford to have a coach fly round the world with them to every event. If you're ranked ~100 in the world there on your own it's not fair to then be up against an entourage with one of the top players constantly coaching them.

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            I read somewhere that coaching is allowed on the regular tour but not in the Slams. Is that not the case?

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              Originally posted by JM Footzee View Post
              I read somewhere that coaching is allowed on the regular tour but not in the Slams. Is that not the case?
              The WTA allows one on court coaching session at a changeover per set, yes. It's still quite a new rule and isn't allowed by the slams or ATP. Coaches can't just coach when they like from the stands though.

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                Oddly, the US Open qualifying rounds did allow them to do nearly that - coaching from the stands was allowed between points. I'm not sure anyone would want coaching during a point, so this was effectively free rein. But that was very unusual.

                They are strict rules about how coaching is done on the WTA (some of them a bit bizarre, but that is another story), and it's both limited and at the players instigation, not that of the coach.

                Moore is of course right that that is a benefit only the rich players would have. But then, so is having a coach in the first place. Most of the benefit of that will be felt in the work between matches and in preparation, not on court even if the player and coach are communicating all match.

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                  I suppose the authorities want the illusion of a level playing field, which on-court coaching would destroy.

                  But something like one change-over per set seems reasonable (and maybe one before a tiebreak). However, if a low ranked player has no coach available, they can veto the opponent having coaching.

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                    There's a great discussion of this on the monday episode of second captains.

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                      Thanks for that, really good listen.

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                        It's good isn't it? The American tennis journalist was so delighted to be having an adult conversation, that I swore at one point she was purring like a cat in front of an open fire.

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                          Haha, yeah. Second Captains is in general excellent when I get round to listening.

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                            "Even if the umpire did make incorrect decisions" Which he didn't. What Serena's supporters wanted was for him to ignore code breaches.
                            Billie Jean King appears to have understood that she went too far, as how rowed quite a way back on the sexism and racism allegations.

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                              Williams' behavior was pathetic, she is a sore loser and a liar with an absurd sense of entitlement. Nearly as pathetic are the players and fans who have defended her outlandish behavior.

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                                "What Serena's supporters wanted was for him to ignore code breaches." As is done fairly often in matches. The umpire has quite a lot of latitude in these matters. The way authorities choose to apply the law is key to how discrimination works, so one can legitimately feel discriminated against even if the letter of the law is being followed.

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                                  It would be good if the tennis authorities learnt from this sorry saga that having a rule on the rulebook which is both (a) more or less unnecessary and (b) totally incapable (without vastly increased umpiring staffing levels) of consistent enforcement is maybe not a good idea, at least while the sport has high profile active players of Serena's unappealing temperament.

                                  [mind you, I've long had similar frustrations about the gap between rules and outcomes, and hopeless inconsistencies in practice, regarding defenders manhandling forwards in the penalty area at football set pieces.]
                                  Last edited by Evariste Euler Gauss; 15-09-2018, 12:16.

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                                    Serena and Ramos likely to be kept apart at Aussie Open Interesting from the article that such separations are not entirely unusual, and often come at the umpire's discretion.
                                    Last edited by Jimski; 16-09-2018, 08:34.

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                                      This is well worth a read. Three former umpires discuss the controversy It's really not as simple as "right" and "wrong", it seems.

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                                        Originally posted by Jimski View Post
                                        "What Serena's supporters wanted was for him to ignore code breaches." As is done fairly often in matches. The umpire has quite a lot of latitude in these matters.
                                        Again, an extremely dubious claim. Coaching is very often missed by Umps, or gestures that might be coaching but Umps are not totally sure they are attempted communication between coach and player don't get called. That might have the same effect, but is a rather different thing. Because Umpires actually don't have latitude - if they see something that they are sure is coaching, they have to call it, just the same as if they see a ball they are sure is out they must pip up. Their job is to enforce the rules, and no coaching is a black-and-white rule.

                                        I haven't heard any current or ex-Umps say "Well, sometimes I overlooked coaching to help with game management" If you have, please direct me towards it. None of the three in your link do, with two going explicitly the other way.

                                        And further, that link doesn't fit with your summary. The only criticism they offer about Ramos is he didn't sufficiently manage Williams anger. There is no sense that he was wrong to call the violations he did once she had behaved in the way she had. They only want him to have headed it off at the pass, so to speak.

                                        But really, Serena and her supporters have to take responsibility for her own behaviour, not pass the buck to Ramos. As we saw earlier in the tournament with the criticism of Mohammad Leyhani for how he dealt with Kyrgios, which was an attempt to avoid having to give someone with an explosive temperament code violations, it's really not the Umpires job to do that. The criticism of Leyhani for that probably didn't have a bearing on this as Ramos is very much his own man, but it's worth remembering for inconsistency in media and player calls for Umpires to show flexibility and understanding when emotions are running high.
                                        Last edited by Janik; 16-09-2018, 10:15.

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                                          One of the umpires in the example explicitly says Ramos should have checked to see if Serena had noticed the (attempted) coaching:

                                          “(Ramos) couldn’t wait to issue that warning without thinking even for a second to make sure Serena saw her coach and received the information or not,’’ Samot said.
                                          There's also a point made by many (such as Navratilova and Azarenka) that an umpire may give a "soft" (unofficial) warning about coaching before issuing any penalties. This obviously isn't in the rule book, but it plainly happens, or else why would Navratilova claim "It is also common for the umpire to talk to the player first about the coaching" (this in an article that isn't exactly uncritical of Williams.)

                                          And the game management thing is very much the point. Sure you can play the letter of the law, whether or not that serves the interests of the match or not, allowing the situation to escalate. Or you can take a more human approach, and try to settle the situation down. I know which sort of umpire I think does a better job (in a sense not defined by the rule book).

                                          On a separate note, there's an interesting point made that Serena may well have been under the impression that the original violation had been rescinded. She's told the umpire that she wasn't cheating, he's appeared to believe her, and then suddenly she gets a second (as opposed to first) violation when throwing her racket.
                                          Last edited by Jimski; 16-09-2018, 10:57.

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