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    #51
    Isn’t Wahaca! more or less Wagamama for Mexican food?

    I’ve heard reports that many of the better “ethnic” restaurants in Milan are struggling because their core audience of comfortable Italians who have spent significant amounts of time abroad is shrinking as more and more of such people emigrate permanently. It is particularly an issue for places targeting a twenty-something crowd and those that don’t have a meaningful number of “expats” to fall back on. This can have unexpected effects. For example, a couple of the Eritrean restaurants in our old neighborhood have become more authentic as they have given up on trying to cater to Italian sensibilities.

    Food can be extremely complicated.

    Comment


      #52
      'Authenticity' is far from 'bullsh*t'. I have no problem with Tex-Mex places or Taco Bell, etc - to my knowledge, they don't pretend to be anything that they aren't - but if restaurateurs are taking money for purported 'authentic' Mexican food, then isn't that what they should be serving? (No doubt they'd be charging appropriately, either way...)

      Comment


        #53
        That’s part of what I was getting at with “monetisation”.

        Taco Bell doesn’t claim to be authentic, but there are large swathes of the country where it and the Old El Paso stuff that comes in boxes and cans are what people think of when they think of “Mexican Food”. That is changing fairly rapidly as Central Americans spread throughout the country and open restaurants, just as it did 50 years ago with the Chinese.

        Comment


          #54
          Wikipedia said it was San Bernadino, not Bakersfield. Bakersfield sounds better, though.

          This suggests that Mexicans are not impressed with Taco Bell, nor Mr. Bell's claim to have invented the hard-shell taco.
          https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-...from-81228162/

          Comment


            #55
            I'm with Reed on this. He seriously turned me around with The Authenticity Hoax. 'Authentic' Mexican food doesn't exist and more than 'authentic' curry does. Curry is whatever half a billion Indian women mix in their own kitchens. It's as unique as the person who makes it. I can only imagine that the million differences between one end of Mexico and the other would be as varied as between Mexico City and London.

            Oddly, Jamie Oliver did a show touring around southern Italy in an old (I think) VW bus. Each town...within a mile or two of its neighbor...had a wildly different idea about how to cook the region's signature dishes. "Always use fresh tomatoes....no, no...always use canned tomatoes......lots of garlic....no, no garlic at all....but lots of oregano." It's nuts.

            Comment


              #56
              Originally posted by Jah Womble View Post
              'Authenticity' is far from 'bullsh*t'. I have no problem with Tex-Mex places or Taco Bell, etc - to my knowledge, they don't pretend to be anything that they aren't - but if restaurateurs are taking money for purported 'authentic' Mexican food, then isn't that what they should be serving? (No doubt they'd be charging appropriately, either way...)
              They shouldn't be calling it "authentic" not just because it isn't, but because the term doesn't really mean anything. At least nothing worth caring about.

              Even within the country of origin, there's usually a lot of diversity, so who decides what is "authentic?" It just creates a lot of winner-less arguments. I didn't see the Jamie Oliver episode WOM mentions, but I recall a great bit on one of Bourdain's shows in Italy - Rome, I think - where a bunch of people are arguing about some detail of a pasta sauce and doing so with the stereotypical hand-gestures, etc. Bourdain had to reassure the viewers - multiple times, as I recall - that these were not actors and he didn't script it.*


              And what does it really supposed to mean anyway? Is it just based on the ethnicity of the cook? Which recipe is older? Neither of those reliably correlates to the quality of the eating experience. If a new way of doing something makes it taste better, or affordable when it wouldn't be otherwise, then there's no good reason not to prefer that over the older or more "authentic" version. In my experience, it's just a word used by douchebags who studied abroad in college to act superior and pretend to be more woke. It doesn't help the plight of colonized peoples or make the food any better.


              I'm with Reed on this. He seriously turned me around with The Authenticity Hoax. 'Authentic' Mexican food doesn't exist and more than 'authentic' curry does. Curry is whatever half a billion Indian women mix in their own kitchens. It's as unique as the person who makes it. I can only imagine that the million differences between one end of Mexico and the other would be as varied as between Mexico City and London.
              I don't agree with everything Andrew Potter writes or even everything in that book, but he's right about how it relates to restaurants.



              * On the other hand, the fact that so many people (everyone?) in Italy is so passionate about details in food is a big reason why everyone raves about the food in Italy. I've never been to Italy, but I observed the same thing in France. There are, of course, great chefs in those countries doing amazing and innovative things, but it seems that doing the simple things with great care is the area where US food culture has the most to learn from other countries. And to some extent, we are, but it still feels like what is just common and accepted over there is still regarded - or more to the point, *sold* - as hipster or upscale over here, and it's not even always better than the stuff sold as working class and democratic. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu-S_USMQ0U)

              Diners, Drive-Ins, and Dives is/was so popular because it shows the handful of places that combine really good food with a non-intimidating, inclusive atmosphere. Those places - and that vibe - shouldn't be so rare.
              Last edited by Hot Pepsi; 21-08-2018, 18:51.

              Comment


                #57
                Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                Isn’t Wahaca! more or less Wagamama for Mexican food?

                I’ve heard reports that many of the better “ethnic” restaurants in Milan are struggling because their core audience of comfortable Italians who have spent significant amounts of time abroad is shrinking as more and more of such people emigrate permanently. It is particularly an issue for places targeting a twenty-something crowd and those that don’t have a meaningful number of “expats” to fall back on. This can have unexpected effects. For example, a couple of the Eritrean restaurants in our old neighborhood have become more authentic as they have given up on trying to cater to Italian sensibilities.

                Food can be extremely complicated.
                Basically, but when that country’s previous experience of Mexican food is basically Swenson’s microwaveable enchiladas standard, it’s a damn paradigm shift.

                You can see the limits though. Mestizo might be the only place in the country that does al pastor, which every self-respecting taquerias in the US does. This is because Wahaca nor Chipotle do it, so they don’t know about it.

                Comment


                  #58
                  Of course, Al Pastor is itself cultural appropriation... Damned Mexicans, nicking it from middle easter immigrants.

                  Comment


                    #59
                    Originally posted by San Bernardhinault View Post
                    Of course, Al Pastor is itself cultural appropriation... Damned Mexicans, nicking it from middle easter immigrants.
                    According to that same wikipedia article, the Middle Easterners brought it to Mexico.

                    Comment


                      #60
                      Originally posted by Hot Pepsi View Post
                      Diners, Drive-Ins, and Dives is/was so popular because it shows the handful of places that combine really good food with a non-intimidating, inclusive atmosphere. Those places - and that vibe - shouldn't be so rare.
                      Sadly, I'd argue that it's so popular because people want to know there are still 'authentic' American eateries left in the country, and not just TGIFridays and Chillis.

                      Comment


                        #61
                        Originally posted by WOM View Post
                        I'm with Reed on this. He seriously turned me around with The Authenticity Hoax. 'Authentic' Mexican food doesn't exist and more than 'authentic' curry does. Curry is whatever half a billion Indian women mix in their own kitchens. It's as unique as the person who makes it. I can only imagine that the million differences between one end of Mexico and the other would be as varied as between Mexico City and London.

                        Oddly, Jamie Oliver did a show touring around southern Italy in an old (I think) VW bus. Each town...within a mile or two of its neighbor...had a wildly different idea about how to cook the region's signature dishes. "Always use fresh tomatoes....no, no...always use canned tomatoes......lots of garlic....no, no garlic at all....but lots of oregano." It's nuts.
                        Of course authentic Mexican food does exist, as do authentic indian curries, that's an undeniable fact. The confusion with Mexican food authenticity stems in the fact that certain popular items like the burrito are Cal-Mex, or originally from the Mexican community settled in California, and not from Mexico proper. Authentic "ethnic" food is difficult to serve outside of its geographical confines due to the limitations from local ingredients, the lack of expertise of local chefs either because they're not originally from there, or because they're subject to the limitations of having to cater to the local clientele, for example the French baker in Dallas who has to include brownies and muffins in his viennoiseries mix. The restaurant business is a very difficult and demanding line of work with a high failure rate, restaurateurs have to adapt or die.

                        Cultural appropriation happens when artifacts from a foreign culture are used without respecting their original use or context. The clearest example I've seen is the Israeli appropriation of Palestinian food, such as this:





                        The most blatant case is "israeli couscous", a foodstuff from the Levant which predates zionism, which has been stripped of its national origin and copyrighted as Israeli.

                        https://www.americastestkitchen.com/...raeli-couscous

                        A good essay on the subject:

                        http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1...68796813519428

                        Comment


                          #62
                          Of course authentic Mexican food does exist, as do authentic indian curries, that's an undeniable fact.
                          It's very deniable. I just denied it.

                          Comment


                            #63
                            Originally posted by linus View Post
                            Of course authentic Mexican food does exist, as do authentic indian curries, that's an undeniable fact.
                            I think the thing with 'authentic' is that it conjures some kind of single, official 'thing'. One thing. There's simply no chance that in India with a billion people, or Mexico with 125 million (both countries intra-ethnically and geographically diverse) that there would be a single 'authentic' cuisine. There would be hundreds, equally authentic, which would render the notion of authenticity moot.

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                              #64
                              That's nonsense, isn't it? Just because it is not a single entity doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

                              I'm not a particular fan of "authenticity", particularly not with food. But that doesn't mean its not a thing.

                              Comment


                                #65
                                I think that people are talking past each other here.

                                As I read WOM and Reed, they are objecting to the idea of a single, exclusive "authentic" cuisine from any given country or region. FWIW, I don't think anyone else was claiming that there was such a thing, but I can understand how North Americans could get that idea.

                                I don't think that they are denying that there are multiple individual cuisines from such countries or regions that are "authentic". And a corollary to that, I would argue, is that if one is so bold as to sell "authentic X" food, it has to be in fact authentic, and not the product of focus group testing or a celebrity chef's "re-imagining" of the authentic. One could frame the difference as that between "authentic food from Italy" vs. "authentic Italian food", with the explicit claim to universality of the latter being obvious bollocks.

                                Comment


                                  #66
                                  Originally posted by San Bernardhinault View Post
                                  That's nonsense, isn't it? Just because it is not a single entity doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

                                  I'm not a particular fan of "authenticity", particularly not with food. But that doesn't mean its not a thing.
                                  It’s not a single thing or even a small set of things, which makes it hard to create a standard that other things will be compared to for the purposes of determining authenticity. So why bother?

                                  More importantly, in my book, is that it doesn’t really matter. As I explained above.



                                  All of this reminds me of this.
                                  https://youtu.be/CsKpShq2X6s
                                  Last edited by Hot Pepsi; 21-08-2018, 21:03.

                                  Comment


                                    #67
                                    Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
                                    Tbf he did that to the Italians first
                                    Whenever I pass ‘Jamie’s Italian’ I say “He isn’t, you know”

                                    (tbf, he did learn to cook with Carluccio, so his Italian recipes are quite good)

                                    Comment


                                      #68
                                      Originally posted by Flynnie View Post
                                      I knew BLT was talking about Wahaca!

                                      IMO, Miers shows some of the limitations of cultural appropriation as a thing. Being from a former Mexican province (aka California) and here for a while, I can say with utter certainty that Mexican food in the UK was utter toilet, absolutely awful, before Miers showed up. She is the primary person responsible for Mexican food in the UK being a thing beyond shitty sombreros, fake mustaches and bad tequila. For that she has done more of a service to the tiny Mexican population in the UK than almost anyone.

                                      Mestizo on Euston Road is at least partially run by actual Mexicans, and I suspect Miers herself would tell you does better Mexican food than Wahaca. Which it does - I had a near-religious experience there having tacos al pastor for the first time in years, and a molcajete with steaming Oaxacan cheese, and tortillas served in a little pouch like you get back home.

                                      However, it also costs at least twice what a meal at Wahaca will cost and there's one of them versus many Wahacas. And I can take my little boy to a Wahaca. So to Wahaca I go, happily.
                                      But isn't this the point? The quality of Mexican food in the UK may have improved - but who has benefited? Seems to me to be mainly Miers and her business partner, and also anyone who owns any of the chains of knock-off Wahacas who've got in on the ground opened up.

                                      Thing is, while Miers et al may have brought decent Mexican food to the mass-market, the Latinx community* in London has largely been unable to benefit. In part because the majority of cafes and restaurants run by Latinx people in London are "too authentic" i.e. they're full of working-class Latinx people, staffed by people who speak little English and subject to the constant background terror of racist policing/immigration enforcement.

                                      The twin centres of Latinx cultural/economic life in London (Seven Sisters Indoor Market and Elephant and Castle shopping centre) are both facing redevelopment and destruction - and Wahaca is increasingly becoming the sort of high-street chain that will be encouraged to move into whatever shiny new retail developments are to be built in these ethnically cleansed districts of London.

                                      Cultural appropriation takes from non-white cultures and repackages what it takes in a way that is "safe" for white people - shorn of its pesky associations with colonised people. That's true whether it's a pastiche of the culture (music festival headdresses, sombreros and fake moustaches, jerk rice) or whether it's repackaging "authenticity" for a white audience.

                                      *The ellision between "Mexican" and "Latinx" here is clumsy, sorry, but I don't think it invalidates my point.

                                      Comment


                                        #69
                                        Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                                        As I read WOM and Reed, they are objecting to the idea of a single, exclusive "authentic" cuisine from any given country or region. FWIW, I don't think anyone else was claiming that there was such a thing, but I can understand how North Americans could get that idea.
                                        Ha.

                                        If 'authentic' is such a misnomer to their ears, perhaps WOM and Reed would prefer to use the expression 'traditional'? The same non-debate might surface, I suspect - 'different regions/families have different recipes/methods', etc - we know this. However, to deny that such 'authentic' cuisine (as varied as it will be from region to region) even exists all sounds a bit 'Trump' to me. In Britain, most of us know full well that the food served in our Indian restaurants is going to be pretty far-removed from what one might receive at some far-flung eatery in Jaipur: what we'll get here will likely be satisfying and flavoursome, but it ain't the Real McCoy. Traditional Indian cooks laugh at the ingredients in - and the names of - some of the concoctions dished up over here.

                                        Why is this proving such a difficult thing for some people to process? If you eat Cal-Mex or Tex-Mex, then you know (or should know) that what you're getting is a version watered-down to suit a broader palate. There's no shame in it whatsoever - it's still edible, and more than decent on occasion.

                                        But 'traditional'/'authentic'/'genuine'/'Real McCoy' - it is not. Sell it, serve it, eat it - just don't misrepresent it. It's not that difficult.

                                        Comment


                                          #70
                                          Originally posted by Bizarre Löw Triangle View Post
                                          But isn't this the point? The quality of Mexican food in the UK may have improved - but who has benefited? Seems to me to be mainly Miers and her business partner, and also anyone who owns any of the chains of knock-off Wahacas who've got in on the ground opened up.

                                          Thing is, while Miers et al may have brought decent Mexican food to the mass-market, the Latinx community* in London has largely been unable to benefit. In part because the majority of cafes and restaurants run by Latinx people in London are "too authentic" i.e. they're full of working-class Latinx people, staffed by people who speak little English and subject to the constant background terror of racist policing/immigration enforcement.

                                          The twin centres of Latinx cultural/economic life in London (Seven Sisters Indoor Market and Elephant and Castle shopping centre) are both facing redevelopment and destruction - and Wahaca is increasingly becoming the sort of high-street chain that will be encouraged to move into whatever shiny new retail developments are to be built in these ethnically cleansed districts of London.

                                          Cultural appropriation takes from non-white cultures and repackages what it takes in a way that is "safe" for white people - shorn of its pesky associations with colonised people. That's true whether it's a pastiche of the culture (music festival headdresses, sombreros and fake moustaches, jerk rice) or whether it's repackaging "authenticity" for a white audience.

                                          *The ellision between "Mexican" and "Latinx" here is clumsy, sorry, but I don't think it invalidates my point.
                                          I have benefited, my family has benefited, the very small number of people in the UK who actually like Mexican food have benefited. As I said, she is the primary person responsible for rescuing its reputation from the slop that somewhere like Desperados serves up. I find it difficult to separate that from whiteness because the Mexican community in the UK is tiny. Maybe 10,000 people, half of whom are students. Take out the diplomatic corps, the finance people, and people who married a Brit and live in Milton Keynes and I'm not sure how many are left. This isn't Jamie Oliver making shit jerk when there's a million places in the UK that do it better.

                                          While I really like Mestizo, it itself is not hugely accessible. It's very pricey and quite posh, no more similar to the bric-a-brac laden working-class cafes of E&C or the taquerias of back home than Wahaca is, in some ways possibly less.

                                          While I have spent a fair bit of time in E&C and Brixton's Latino restaurants - put me in a room with Latinos and I get very giddy and slightly embarrass myself, as I'm amongst my people - there's no Mexican restaurants there and very few Mexican people. The community is mostly Colombian and Venezuelan, with a smattering of other nationalities. There's a Dominican barbershop, which I did a double take walking by and seriously considered bursting in with "any of y'all like baseball?!" (Dominicans like baseball more than any group of people on earth). Their struggle is separate to Wahaca for me.

                                          Comment


                                            #71
                                            Originally posted by Jah Womble View Post
                                            Ha.

                                            If 'authentic' is such a misnomer to their ears, perhaps WOM and Reed would prefer to use the expression 'traditional'? The same non-debate might surface, I suspect - 'different regions/families have different recipes/methods', etc - we know this. However, to deny that such 'authentic' cuisine (as varied as it will be from region to region) even exists all sounds a bit 'Trump' to me. In Britain, most of us know full well that the food served in our Indian restaurants is going to be pretty far-removed from what one might receive at some far-flung eatery in Jaipur: what we'll get here will likely be satisfying and flavoursome, but it ain't the Real McCoy. Traditional Indian cooks laugh at the ingredients in - and the names of - some of the concoctions dished up over here.

                                            Why is this proving such a difficult thing for some people to process? If you eat Cal-Mex or Tex-Mex, then you know (or should know) that what you're getting is a version watered-down to suit a broader palate. There's no shame in it whatsoever - it's still edible, and more than decent on occasion.

                                            But 'traditional'/'authentic'/'genuine'/'Real McCoy' - it is not. Sell it, serve it, eat it - just don't misrepresent it. It's not that difficult.
                                            Cal-Mex and Tex-Mex are perfectly authentic for the experiences of Mexicans or Mexican-Americans in former Mexican states on the other side of the border. Burritos and fajitas didn't just appear in the last ten years, they've existed for decades if not longer.

                                            It's like Italians getting angry that spaghetti and meatballs exist in America. Who the fuck do you think invented spaghetti and meatballs? It wasn't Irish immigrants, it was Italians who could actually afford to buy decent quantities of ground beef for the first time in their lives.

                                            Comment


                                              #72
                                              Originally posted by Bizarre Löw Triangle View Post
                                              But isn't this the point? The quality of Mexican food in the UK may have improved - but who has benefited? Seems to me to be mainly Miers and her business partner, and also anyone who owns any of the chains of knock-off Wahacas who've got in on the ground opened up.

                                              Thing is, while Miers et al may have brought decent Mexican food to the mass-market, the Latinx community* in London has largely been unable to benefit. In part because the majority of cafes and restaurants run by Latinx people in London are "too authentic" i.e. they're full of working-class Latinx people, staffed by people who speak little English and subject to the constant background terror of racist policing/immigration enforcement.

                                              The twin centres of Latinx cultural/economic life in London (Seven Sisters Indoor Market and Elephant and Castle shopping centre) are both facing redevelopment and destruction - and Wahaca is increasingly becoming the sort of high-street chain that will be encouraged to move into whatever shiny new retail developments are to be built in these ethnically cleansed districts of London.

                                              Cultural appropriation takes from non-white cultures and repackages what it takes in a way that is "safe" for white people - shorn of its pesky associations with colonised people. That's true whether it's a pastiche of the culture (music festival headdresses, sombreros and fake moustaches, jerk rice) or whether it's repackaging "authenticity" for a white audience.

                                              *The ellision between "Mexican" and "Latinx" here is clumsy, sorry, but I don't think it invalidates my point.
                                              That sounds like an argument against capitalism rather than cultural appropriation specifically.

                                              Perhaps some benefit comes from people trying the more 'authentic' food, falling in love with it, and travelling to Mexico to spend some of their money there?

                                              What I'd like to know is whether I can visit my local Chinese restaurant, Thai cafe, or Indian takeway with a clear conscience. Because the people running them are serving very Westernised versions of 'authentic' dishes.

                                              Perhaps Dawn Butler would like to pick a fight with them for monetising and selling out their culture.

                                              Comment


                                                #73
                                                When I make my version of Jerk Chicken I'm all too aware that it isn't authentic, and would offend the Dragons from Dragon's Den who financed Levi Roots, so I call it Berk Chicken. And I sit alone eating it, laughing at how clever and funny I am.

                                                Your man Levi Roots says the Jerk Rice is a mistake, and probably thinks Jamie Oliver is a fat fucking hypocrite though he didn't say it. There was a "Jamaican Curry" ready meal I had once. Had pineapple and that in it. Apparently pineapple doesn't figure at all in Jamaican cuisine. Still. It's all the same isn't it? Tropical island, black people, pineapples, cans of Lilt. No harm done.

                                                Comment


                                                  #74
                                                  What I'd like to know is whether I can visit my local Chinese restaurant, Thai cafe, or Indian takeway with a clear conscience. Because the people running them are serving very Westernised versions of 'authentic' dishes.

                                                  Perhaps Dawn Butler would like to pick a fight with them for monetising and selling out their culture.
                                                  What?

                                                  Comment


                                                    #75
                                                    heh, there's something a little amusing with seeing a bunch of English people and Americans, from the two great magpie cultures discussing cultural appropriation. I mean it's great that it's happening, but there's a long way to go. It's a terribly difficult thing to define, but it essentially boils down to a powerful culture taking things from another culture that the powerful culture spends a lot of its time oppressing or casually fucking over, usually most people are unaware of this. It's the taking, and the oppressing thing that are the important bits, because otherwise it's a compliment. It's a thing that is difficult to define the sort of thing that you know when you see.

                                                    For instance take the example of the "Irish pub." Now this is a tricky one. These post modern pastiches of an Irish pub, take an image of Irish pubs, essentially rooted in migrant pubs in the UK, and are replicated out of kits all around the world. If you go into one of these in Asia somewhere, and it's owned by an Irish person, then you think "Fair dues to him for selling a packaged version of the Irish pub experience to these people. Hopefully some of them will be tempted to visit the real thing. I hope he does well." If it's owed by an English person OTOH, then it's " If this racist fuck sets foot in Ireland, they'll never find his body."

                                                    Something that could have gone really fucking wrong was a thing like riverdance. Now Issues to do with the music aside (bill whelan should build a new house for every galician piper, he can certainly afford it) when the time came to turn a seven minute interval act into a stage show, they came up with the idea of going to America and having the Melting pot experience. So this meant that you could include Flamenco dancers, or jazz-tap dancers and a couple of other traditions as well. They avoided cultural appropriation charges by going out and getting really good examples of that sort of dancing, allowing them to essentially choreograph their own bits, so when a flamenco fan would watch the show, they would say "That is flamenco dancing, and that's a really good flamenco dancer". And when they got them to do the crossover/interaction dances, it was the two people working it out. the other thing to remember is that these people got paid an awful lot of money. Now if it had been an Irish person choreographing the flamenco dance, or an Irish person doing the dance from the start, that would be cultural appropriation. Now if an irish person is going to dance that role, it will only be because they've taken the time to become a really good flamenco dancer.

                                                    Now Riverdance is an awful mess, a mess that has a level of success comparable to 25 years of the book of mormon. There are now people in the show, who are children of the people who were in the original. But at least it's not an early 21st century version of the minstrel shows. Now "lord of the Dance" and it's follow ups on the other hand.... I was worried that Flatley's "Celtic Tiger" show was going to offend Americans. (Yes, Yes I know flatley is from chicago, but this show is fucking mental)

                                                    This is very tricky to pull off in music. There's a world of difference between someone ripping off a south African whistle player, and calling it "The lion sleeps tonight", and Graceland. Now substantial issues with Simon Breaking the boycott, on the other hand He did use really good South African musicians, and they did get a lot of freedom to do their thing, and it substantially contributes to Graceland being by far the best album of the 1980's. Also all of those acts went on to become globally famous once people got to hear just how good they were, and when they would put on their own music as the warm up acts for the various Graceland concert tours. G-man would be in a better position to comment, but the quickest way to avoid charges of cultural appropriation is a) genuine collaboration b) giving full credit and c) paying people.

                                                    Anyway, I bet that jamie Oliver wouldn't be getting half as much hassle from the Jamaican community, if the UK govt wasn't in the process of deporting all of their grandparents.

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