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    #26
    Originally posted by treibeis View Post
    Yes, but you're allowed to wear a Lederhose and a tablecloth shirt, now that you're German and that.

    Or haven't you fully defected yet?
    I'm being processed at the moment.

    I passed the Einbürgerungstest with 80%. I think I forgot the name of Helmut Kohl's dog.

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      #27
      I'd add "monetising" others' culture (see the multiple examples in the article dm linked) as being especially bad, but yeah, what ad hoc said.

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        #28
        There was a studio discussion about Jamie Oliver's rice on C4 news last night that didn't really clarify matters as it started out criticising him for profiteering from another culture but then used the inauthenticity of the recipe as evidence of that. If it is wrong in principle then surely the execution doesn't matter but if it is just a crap product then people can vote with their shopping baskets. It doesn't seem as egregious a case as when the western owned chain of Vietnamese cafes called Pho tried to trademark the name of the dish and prevent anyone else using it, which was the equivalent of taking ownership of the term fish and chips (they didn't in the end, iirc).
        Last edited by Benjm; 21-08-2018, 13:46.

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          #29
          Originally posted by Stumpy Pepys View Post
          I'm being processed at the moment.

          I passed the Einbürgerungstest with 80%. I think I forgot the name of Helmut Kohl's dog.
          During my spells in der Vaterland I occasionally sampled ein Burger at various grungefesten. Put the passport in the post, Ange.

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            #30
            I'm aware that my dividing line makes no sense. And I'm not sure why.

            If I listen to white-boy blues, I almost always find it plodding and terrible. But, even if it's an English bloke singing in a fake American accent, it doesn't feel culturally offensive - it's just aurally offensive.

            But if I listen to English white boy cod-reggae, particularly once a fake Jamaican accent is put on, it feels pretty egregious.

            This is clearly contradictory, and I don't know where the line gets drawn.

            I agree with Ursus on the monetisation thing, but even then I'm not sure where the line is. It's certainly something to do with the power dynamic.

            On the food front it seems particularly confusing. There's been quite a lot of fuss recently about anglo-whites opening taco shops - and I can see where that's coming from. But nobody really bats an eyelid (nor should they) at fusion foods which adopt elements from foreign cultures. Also, nobody would be in the least bit bothered by the staff at the Poke place I was at yesterday all being hispanic rather than Pacific Islander. Because they have no power at all. I think there's also - particularly with white anglos in the US opening Mexican restaurants - a feeling of actual theft: a Mexican restaurant owned by white people in San Diego is stealing actual business from Mexican-Mexican restaurants; if the same restaurant opened in, say, Swindon or Salzburg, where there's not a large Mexican population already in the restaurant industry, you're not really stealing anything.

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              #31
              You remember that guy Anthony Bourdain? He did multiple TV shows where he explored cuisines from all over the world. When he died I saw lots of tweets from different places praising him for how he respected their culinary cultures. Didn't see a single accusation of appropriation. Because he didn't try and pass anything off as his unique genius and gave credit where it was due.

              No-one is saying people shouldn't cook what they like, that's shitty media 'culture war' nonsense. But if I use a combination of spices to make tasty hot rice, then decide to market it as a product, I shouldn't call it 'Delicatemoth's Jerk Rice'. That's not an imposition, that's common decency.

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                #32
                Originally posted by delicatemoth View Post
                No-one is saying people shouldn't cook what they like, that's shitty media 'culture war' nonsense. But if I use a combination of spices to make tasty hot rice, then decide to market it as a product, I shouldn't call it 'Delicatemoth's Jerk Rice'. That's not an imposition, that's common decency.
                It's also nonsense. It's like saying that Africans can't compose traditional, Western-European classical music because they're not white. If you alter the spices - like any other self-respecting cook - and call it Delicatemoth's Jerk Rice, no problem. To say that you can't 'do' a flavour, sound, or style based solely on the colour of your skin should be offensive on the face of it.

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                  #33
                  Digging a bit deeper, who suffers anyway? Did Jamaica see a loss in stature because Sting did white-boy reggae? What's the perceived crime?

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                    #34
                    Digging a bit deeper, who suffers anyway? Did Jamaica see a loss in stature because Sting did white-boy reggae?
                    We all suffered because Sting did white-boy reggae.

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                      #35
                      I once saw a teapot that was also a fat smiling Buddha. The spout was positioned so it looked like his penis.

                      I'm not a Buddhist but I thought that was crassly offensive.

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                        #36
                        Originally posted by treibeis View Post
                        Yes, but you're allowed to wear a Lederhose and a tablecloth shirt, now that you're German and that.

                        Or haven't you fully defected yet?
                        Does the table-cloth shirt have cultural significance? I thought the shirt worn with Lederhosen was usually just white.

                        I had Lederhosen as a baby that my grandparents bought in Germany a few days after I was born. My mom re-purposed them for a teddy bear.

                        When I was in Munich a few years back, I thought about buying some. They look well-suited to hiking. But they're too expensive. I bought some of those socks where the calf bit is detached from the foot bit. But they didn't last. They got all stretchy.

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                          #37
                          Cultural appropriation is turning dissatisfaction towards capitalism on culture rather than power, political or economic. I think it's a sign of powerlessness as much as anything.

                          That said, if you're some white div like Oliver making bullshit jerk rice, I don't want your product. If you were nailing the mix of scotch bonnet peppers and allspice, fine. If you're Jamaican and putting a twist on jerk, maybe. But taking something people really treasure and turning it into shit is a dick move.

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                            #38
                            Tbf he did that to the Italians first

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                              #39
                              My limited experience of Trachten shirts is that they primarily come in varieties of white (ivory, bone, “natural”, etc), lighter shades of blue and checks of red, blue and green. I think Bayern favour the red checks because it is a club colour.

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                                #40
                                Originally posted by WOM View Post
                                It's also nonsense. It's like saying that Africans can't compose traditional, Western-European classical music because they're not white. If you alter the spices - like any other self-respecting cook - and call it Delicatemoth's Jerk Rice, no problem. To say that you can't 'do' a flavour, sound, or style based solely on the colour of your skin should be offensive on the face of it.
                                When European scholars were proclaiming Africans too backwards, uncivilised and genetically inferior to be taken seriously as artists (or to even hold property, or escape genocide), Picasso and Cezanne were incorporating ideas and aesthetics lifted directly from African artists into their own work and being feted across the art-world as the pioneers of modern art.

                                When African American musicians weren't even allowed into the segregated clubs they used to play, or were pigeonholed into "black" genres of music, white artists incorporated African sounds into their own music and became global superstars.

                                It's no different with cooking. Chefs from minority backgrounds cooking their own traditional cuisines generally get excluded from both "fine-dining" and from celebrity cheffing. Often they end up having to bastardise their own traditional cuisines and recipes to accommodate the British palette while white chefs who borrow "exotic" ideas or ingredients in their cooking - or even worse open restaurants that claim to offer "authentic" interpretations of the cuisines of colonised people - become incredibly successful (one such chef describes herself on her website as "a culinary adventurer").

                                People of colour who do become successful as celebrity chefs end up pigeonholed as advocates of their traditional cuisines. They certainly are not permitted to make the sorts of basic errors about European cuisines that Jamie Oliver makes about Jamaican food.

                                This is a dynamic rooted in colonialism and racism. Colonised people are discriminated against or ridiculed for their culture while superficially adopting its adornments gives colonisers a fashionable cosmopolitan chic.
                                Last edited by Bizarre Löw Triangle; 21-08-2018, 15:48.

                                Comment


                                  #41
                                  Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
                                  Tbf he did that to the Italians first
                                  A group of people who also get extremely shirty when their food is done badly.

                                  Comment


                                    #42
                                    [To BLT]

                                    The unifying idea there is that the Bohemians - the artists, the musicians, the cooks - broke ranks and had the courage to sample from...wherever. So maybe now it's spread a little farther...to fashion or furniture or wherever. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with disseminating good ideas - in food, sound, design, clothing. To say that 'the masses' shouldn't borrow / share / sample from other cultures simply serves the keep the walls up between them.

                                    Will the Canadian government ever abandon its judicial system and adopt forms of native reparative justice? No...not likely. But that shouldn't mean that learning from each other can't start somewhere.

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                                      #43
                                      Originally posted by delicatemoth View Post
                                      You remember that guy Anthony Bourdain? He did multiple TV shows where he explored cuisines from all over the world. When he died I saw lots of tweets from different places praising him for how he respected their culinary cultures. Didn't see a single accusation of appropriation. Because he didn't try and pass anything off as his unique genius and gave credit where it was due.

                                      No-one is saying people shouldn't cook what they like, that's shitty media 'culture war' nonsense. But if I use a combination of spices to make tasty hot rice, then decide to market it as a product, I shouldn't call it 'Delicatemoth's Jerk Rice'. That's not an imposition, that's common decency.
                                      Pretty much my position. When Levi Roots showed Jamie O how to cook jerk chicken, he told him scotch bonnet was an essential ingredient. Mr Oliver’s “punchy jerk rice” has no scotch bonnet, m’lud.

                                      Andi Oliver (no relation) had 4 news organisations trying to get her opinion last night, as she’s a popular cook. She gave it freely on FB and Twitter, she thinks CA is a load of bollocks. But could see why people think it’s cheeky to make it part of his brand.

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                                        #44
                                        Originally posted by WOM View Post
                                        [To BLT]

                                        The unifying idea there is that the Bohemians - the artists, the musicians, the cooks - broke ranks and had the courage to sample from...wherever. So maybe now it's spread a little farther...to fashion or furniture or wherever. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with disseminating good ideas - in food, sound, design, clothing. To say that 'the masses' shouldn't borrow / share / sample from other cultures simply serves the keep the walls up between them.

                                        Will the Canadian government ever abandon its judicial system and adopt forms of native reparative justice? No...not likely. But that shouldn't mean that learning from each other can't start somewhere.
                                        It's not the learning from that's the problem. It's white people superficially taking from colonised peoples' cultures to give themselves a cosmopolitan chic - and particularly the monetisation of that - with no real understanding of the cultures that they're borrowing from.

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                                          #45
                                          Originally posted by WOM View Post
                                          Come now. A cook shouldn't trade in 'cultural' flavours or food styles?
                                          He can dabble in whatever he wants - but he shouldn't be palming off his own little whims as something that they aren't. (As BLT alludes above, terms like 'jerk' aren't just some cutesie moniker that anyone can apply to whatever they're selling just to look cool.)

                                          There are worse crimes, I admit - and Stumpy's probably closer to the reality - but, as you can see, a fair few were put out by it.

                                          https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-45246009

                                          Oliver has enough money - he doesn't need to do this.

                                          Comment


                                            #46
                                            Originally posted by Bizarre Löw Triangle View Post
                                            When European scholars were proclaiming Africans too backwards, uncivilised and genetically inferior to be taken seriously as artists (or to even hold property, or escape genocide), Picasso and Cezanne were incorporating ideas and aesthetics taken from African artists into their own work and being feted across the art-world as the pioneers of modern art.

                                            When African American musicians weren't even allowed into the segregated clubs they used to play, or were pigeonholed into "black" genres of music, white artists incorporated African sounds into their own music and became global superstars.

                                            It's no different with cooking. Chefs from minority backgrounds cooking their own traditional cuisines generally get excluded from both fine-dining and from celebrity cheffing. Often they end up having to bastardise their own traditional cuisines and recipes to accommodate the British palette, while white chefs who borrow "exotic" ideas or ingredients in their cooking - or even worse champion "authentic" interpretations of the cuisines of colonised people become incredibly successful (one such chef describes herself on her website as "a culinary adventurer").

                                            People of colour who do become successful as celebrity chefs end up pigeonholed as advocates of their traditional cuisine. They certainly are not permitted to make the sorts of basic errors about European cuisines that Jamie Oliver makes about Jamaican food.

                                            This is a dynamic rooted in colonialism and racism. Colonised people are discriminated against or ridiculed for their culture while superficially adopting its adornments gives colonisers a fashionable cosmopolitan chic.
                                            I think that's it. It's not so much what the white people are doing - unless they're taking credit for inventing things they didn't invent - but that the non-white people doing the same thing are ignored or aren't properly credited.

                                            "Authenticity" is bullshit. Food is just food. One either likes it or doesn't, and that's all that really matters - not whether or not it tastes like the version made in whatever country claims to have invented it.

                                            Of course, if you're really interested in the specifics of food production, culture, and history, you should know that Taco Bell is not very similar to what Mexicans would recognize as "Mexican" food (although I suspect there are Taco Bells in Mexico now) and you'll be very surprised if you expect the food in Beijing to taste just like the food from your local cardboard-box take-out in the US. But Taco Bell and "Chinese" take-out are just as authentically what they're trying to be as Mexican food made by Mexican grandmas and Chinese food made by Chinese chefs in China. Mexicans or Chinese people are right to object to somebody who erroneously believes that the American fast-food version of their cuisine is representative of what they really eat, especially if that stereotype is being used to make them look stupid*, but that's separate from the "authenticity" of the food.

                                            And I'm not going to feel bad about that. Even aside from the considerable issues around the ethics of meat, my understanding is that I wouldn't like "real" Chinese food very much. And people from China are often perplexed by food they find here. And that's fine. Tastes are created by all sorts of influences - usually in childhood, I suppose - are hard to shift and there's rarely a good reason to pretend to like eating something that you don't. Anthony Bourdain and Andrew Zimmern will try anything, if for no other purpose than describing that bit of culture to viewers, and always show due respect to their hosts, but they don't pretend to like stuff they don't like. They never pretend to be anything more than curious tourists and most of the people they meet are happy to meet them on those terms.

                                            *It appears that many people's opinion of US food culture is based on the US-based fast food chains they have in their country and that's not really fair. It's not something I worry about much because we've done enough to deserve that derision anyway and because a lot of American food really is garbage.

                                            Comment


                                              #47
                                              Originally posted by Hot Pepsi View Post
                                              "Authenticity" is bullshit. Food is just food. One either likes it or doesn't, and that's all that really matters - not whether or not it tastes like the version made in whatever country claims to have invented it.
                                              There's a chain of Mexican restaurants in London called "Wahaca" that claims to be offering an "authentic" version of the sort of street food you'd get in Oaxaca (correct spelling was an authenticity too far) owned by a white ex-public schoolgirl called Thomasina Miers.

                                              "Authenticity" has cachet when you can fly to Mexico and pick up a recipe off a Mexican granny selling tacos on a street corner. It's not much use if you're the Mexican granny selling tacos on the street corner - it's not going to get you a visa to the UK or the social and financial capital to successfully open and expand a chain of restaurants.

                                              And it's not Thomasina Miers' fault that she can take "authentic" recipes from Oaxaca to London and actual Mexican people generally can't (again cos of colonialism) - but it is an injustice and one the people benefitting from should probably have more awareness and sensitivity to.
                                              Last edited by Bizarre Löw Triangle; 21-08-2018, 16:48. Reason: put "authentic" in quotation marks wherer it's used

                                              Comment


                                                #48
                                                I guess I don't love food enough to understand why that would even be appealing. What's wrong with just "Really Good Tacos?"

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                                                  #49
                                                  I knew BLT was talking about Wahaca!

                                                  IMO, Miers shows some of the limitations of cultural appropriation as a thing. Being from a former Mexican province (aka California) and here for a while, I can say with utter certainty that Mexican food in the UK was utter toilet, absolutely awful, before Miers showed up. She is the primary person responsible for Mexican food in the UK being a thing beyond shitty sombreros, fake mustaches and bad tequila. For that she has done more of a service to the tiny Mexican population in the UK than almost anyone.

                                                  Mestizo on Euston Road is at least partially run by actual Mexicans, and I suspect Miers herself would tell you does better Mexican food than Wahaca. Which it does - I had a near-religious experience there having tacos al pastor for the first time in years, and a molcajete with steaming Oaxacan cheese, and tortillas served in a little pouch like you get back home.

                                                  However, it also costs at least twice what a meal at Wahaca will cost and there's one of them versus many Wahacas. And I can take my little boy to a Wahaca. So to Wahaca I go, happily.

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                                                    #50
                                                    Originally posted by Hot Pepsi View Post

                                                    Of course, if you're really interested in the specifics of food production, culture, and history, you should know that Taco Bell is not very similar to what Mexicans would recognize as "Mexican" food (although I suspect there are Taco Bells in Mexico now) and you'll be very surprised if you expect the food in Beijing to taste just like the food from your local cardboard-box take-out in the US. But Taco Bell and "Chinese" take-out are just as authentically what they're trying to be as Mexican food made by Mexican grandmas and Chinese food made by Chinese chefs in China. Mexicans or Chinese people are right to object to somebody who erroneously believes that the American fast-food version of their cuisine is representative of what they really eat, especially if that stereotype is being used to make them look stupid*, but that's separate from the "authenticity" of the food.
                                                    .
                                                    Ugly Delicious showed pretty convincingly that a Taco Bell standard taco is a rip-off of a Mexican restaurant (which is still there)'s tacos across the street from the founder's old burger stand in Bakersfield, CA.

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