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    #51
    I am not pointing the finger at you about this as you weren't at me but I do get a lot of this "Well, what about Russia who are bolstering Assad" etc.

    There are two points about this. Firstly, I am pretty much against Syria, Russia and, indeed, Sadi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt etc. I just happen to be talking about Israel.

    The other point is that it has just been going on sooooo long and with the tacit approval of the rest of the world. Regardless of whether Israel is an apartheid state or not, this is one area when it is like apartheid South Africa - it has been going on for decades and the rest of the world does nothing due to its geopolitical expediency (see also Turkey and Saudi Arabia). I mean, when we were all being anti-Apartheid for decades, no-one was saying that we were paying too much attention to it compared to other atrocities around the world (although, in truth, we probably were especially, ironically, compared to Israel).

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      #52
      I suppose Iran is included in the "etc", BE

      Iranian general blames water shortages on Israel 'stealing rain from clouds’

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        #53
        Bizarre, I think that if more time and energy is expended by some on criticising Israel as opposed to other egregious regimes, that's because they are supposedly in a friendly relationship with the UK. We sell them arms. At a cultural level we allow them entry to the Eurovision song contest and the Euros, as if to imply they are honorary Europeans, a cut above those other querulous, brown-skinned types in the Middle East. There's greater emphasis and deeper frustration because the UK and particularly our transatlantic ally the US allows them to operate a de facto apartheid state with impunity.

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          #54
          Ha ha, that's brilliant, wingco. I was going to mention the Euros and the Eurovision* but thought it too petty and low brow. I really wish I had stuck to my guns now.

          *to be honest, I had third thoughts about the Eurovision as Australia are in now.

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            #55
            Originally posted by wingco View Post
            Bizarre, I think that if more time and energy is expended by some on criticising Israel as opposed to other egregious regimes, that's because they are supposedly in a friendly relationship with the UK. We sell them arms. At a cultural level we allow them entry to the Eurovision song contest and the Euros, as if to imply they are honorary Europeans, a cut above those other querulous, brown-skinned types in the Middle East. There's greater emphasis and deeper frustration because the UK and particularly our transatlantic ally the US allows them to operate a de facto apartheid state with impunity.
            I think I made my point badly. A lot of criticism of Israel by non-Palestinian leftists is very focused on criticising Israel rather than reiterating the demands made by Palestinians living under occupation. Israeli Hasbara seems to be aimed at positioning Israel's occupations and land-thefts, kidnappings and extra-judicial murder are part of the normal business of running a democratic state. And many on the left respond by implying that Israel is uniquely bad and uniquely accommodated by its Western allies (or at the very least, unique).

            But list of democratic states that do or have run brutal military occupations, who participate in ethnic cleansing, who subject indigenous people to kidnapping, arbitrary detention and other state violence is extremely long. A debate about whether Israel falls outside the democratic norms exemplified by other countries in Eurovision, like Russia, Turkey, Ukraine and Australia, is unlikely to have a fruitful outcome. Even if that debate is won, the "international community" has shown itself completely unable to uphold international law (in part because the logics of capitalism demand imperialism - e.g. US military aid to Israel all comes back to the US via defence spending and is hence economically important to the US economy) and that international law is a woeful and inadequate basis to build justice upon. But fundamentally, the norms of Western liberal democracy contain at their core imperialism, racism and dispossession and without acknowledging this fact, criticism of Israel is fairly easily dismissed as hypocritical.

            It seems to me far better for non-Palestinian and non-Israeli leftists to devote our energy to amplifying, putting into practice and organising around the demands and tactics articulated by Palestinians living under occupation - especially those of the BDS movement. That also leads into other natural solidarities - with Sahrawi people resisting Moroccan occupation, with Kashmiri people living under India's brutal occupation
            Last edited by Bizarre Löw Triangle; 02-08-2018, 09:58.

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              #56
              This debate is literally making me ill. I’m so sad and stressed, and obviously, not the only one. In fact I have it very lightly as I’m able to stay out of discussions as much as possible, am not in the public eye and so only being called anti-Semitic once a day or so.

              It’s up there with Trumpism for the cynical post-truth bullying of good people. What the fuck do we do?

              Corbyn is now being attacked as “weak” for “not dealing with this sooner”; but by the sane standards we were used to, he was right not to over-react and so seem to confirm suspicions: “Aha! So you fully accept that Labour is riddled with anti-Semitism!”.

              They’re determined to get him out; whether silencing Israel’s critics is directly related to that is another question. Sometimes, but not always, I think.

              “They” in this case being those who are cynically using this.

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                #57
                This won’t be enough, of course...

                Corbyn makes things very clear in The Graun

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                  #58
                  Lot of stuff coming out today about Stephen Pollard. Done for racism and forced to apologise over a Spectator column in which he falsely accused Islam Expo of being "racist and genocidal" , and then this:

                  https://rebellion602.wordpress.com/2...reats-to-jews/

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                    #59
                    This enthusiastic review by Pollard of racist Douglas K Murray is pretty unpleasant

                    Mass immigration into Europe has made it “a home for the entire world” at a time when Europe “has lost faith in its beliefs, traditions and legitimacy… The world is coming to Europe at precisely the moment that Europe has lost sight of what it is. And while the movement of millions of people from other cultures into a strong and assertive culture might have worked, the movement of millions of people into a guilty, jaded and dying culture cannot.” This is a controversial view (if controversy is defined as differing from modern, liberal verities). It can be — and was repeatedly in reviews of his book — dismissed as racism.

                    But read Murray’s words and take his argument seriously (rather than dismissing it ab initio as beyond the pale, as many chose to do) and you’ll find serious, measured reportage as the foundation of a serious, measured argument.

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                      #60
                      and this piece on "Brexit: It's a wonderful day for Britain - and its Jews" seems singularly dumb/

                      "At root, it’s all about democracy. The Friends of Israel groups will have exactly the same job to do post-Brexit as they do now. No more, and no less. And if we ever ended up with Jeremy Corbyn in No 10, it would be domestic politics – and his own prejudices – that formed his policy towards Israel, not the fact that we are no longer members of the EU.

                      As for our place in British society as Jews and the threat of extremism: I have rarely read more rubbish than the idea we as Jews will suffer from Brexit.

                      While it’s important not to overstate it, antisemitism is a problem now – today, as EU members. I don’t argue that it’s the EU’s fault. But it’s ludicrous to pretend that it doesn’t exist, and that extremism will be a product of Brexit.

                      It’s certainly a truism that when times are troubled, the Jews are often the first target. But the referendum demand from voters that we regain control over immigration isn’t an attack on immigrants, on foreigners – or on Jews. It’s an attack on people being denied any say on a core issue of politics.

                      Indeed, far from Brexit hurting minorities, the real problem for minorities comes when politics ignores such concerns - when the mainstream loses touch with people and the only vehicles left to make a point are extremists. Marine Le Pen is surging in France not because all the French are fascists but because the French governing class – Eurofanatical to the core - treats its voters with contempt.

                      That has been the EU’s fundamental flaw. It regards voters as uncouths who need to have what’s good for them imposed on them. Just look at Greece. That’s how and when extremists prosper – and that’s when the Jews suffer.

                      Our freedom from the EU will make extremism less, not more, likely, as the pressure cooker is released.

                      Whether you think, as I do, that today is a wonderful day, when our country has decided to return to self-government, or you think it a political and economic disaster, as many others do – the fact of our religion is entirely irrelevant.

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                        #61
                        Did Pollard accuse Ed Milliband of being anti-semetic back in 2014? I've a vague recollection, but vague recollections don't tend to be that reliable.

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                          #62
                          He blamed him for Corbyn

                          https://twitter.com/jpjanson/status/804706803095310336

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                            #63
                            Gideon Levy on Corbyn

                            " He voted against the war in Iraq, against nuclear weapons and against British rule in Northern Ireland. He was active in Amnesty against Augusto Pinochet, and was arrested in anti-apartheid demonstrations in South Africa.
                            With such a conscience and courage he wouldn’t have gotten anywhere in Israel, apart from Breaking the Silence. In Britain he has a good chance of being elected the next prime minister. Nothing lights up the imagination and inspires hope more than that. Anyone who wants to see the world take action against the Israeli occupation should dream of Corbyn.
                            Corbyn has been declared the next enemy of the Jews. Viktor Orban is a righteous among the nations; the American alt-right is the rock of Israel and its savior; Rodrigo Duterte, the Philippines’ leader who called to kill millions “like Hitler,” is a welcome guest in Israel – and Corbyn is the enemy of the people.

                            The Jewish establishment in Britain and Israeli propaganda have taken out a contract on him, to foil his election: He’s an anti-Semite, Labor is anti-Semitic, Jewish life in Britain is in “existential danger,” no less, as three British Jewish newspapers cried out in a joint editorial.

                            While the situation of any Jew in Britain is better, safer, more egalitarian and freer than the condition of any Arab citizen in Israel, not to mention the Palestinians in the occupied territories, the Jewish establishment’s desperate cry for help raised an uproar and commotion against Corbyn.

                            The Israeli press hastened to join the incitement campaign – branding every Labor utterance as anti-Semitic. Party Member Peter Willsman branded the rabbis who accused his party of anti-Semitism as “Jewish Trump fanatics” – gevalt, anti-Semitism. Some commentator accused Corbyn of being too apologetic, another accused him of not apologizing. Even a young, impressive journalist like Antonia Yamin of Kan hastened to join the instigation crusade."

                            Let it be said: Corbyn is a staunch, consistent opponent of Israel’s occupation policy. That is his right; as a true leftist it’s his duty. On Labor’s fringes there are certainly anti-Semitic circles; Corbyn stated several days ago in an op-ed in The Guardian that they have no place in his party. The attempt to reduce what Labor defines as anti-Semitic, unlike the prevalent definition of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, doesn’t necessarily make the party anti-Semitic.

                            But the Jewish-Israeli propaganda persists: When Israel enacts the apartheid law and its soldiers kill 160 unarmed demonstrators on the Gaza border, the only response is to accuse anyone who criticizes this of anti-Semitism. It works, it places the accused in the prosecutor’s role.

                            Israel has enacted a law saying it is the nation-state of the Jewish people. In other words, anything Israel does represents the entire Jewish people. This has a price.

                            When an Israeli sniper shoots dead a legless man in a wheelchair, and a nurse – the Jewish people is a partner. Thus Israel’s policy is inflaming anti-Semitism in the world. It may and should be criticized, as Labor does and as Corbyn does, and the gagging, in the form of labeling any criticism as anti-Semitism, is outrageous. It also increases anti-Semitism and the feeling that the Jews are acting like bullies and using their power of emotional blackmail.

                            Hajo Meyer, a Dutch Holocaust survivor and human rights activist, once coined the phrase, “Once an anti-Semite was a man who hates Jews. Today an anti-Semite is a man whom the Jews hate.”

                            Leave the incitement campaign against Corbyn and wish him luck: He’s a man of conscience, and I hope he’ll be Britain’s prime minister. It could be good for Israel as well.

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                              #64
                              Good of the Board of Deputies to show just why those examples to the IHRA theyre so insistent about are so problematic.

                              https://twitter.com/boardofdeputies/status/1027447441438789637

                              As well as confirming how pliant the BBC is on Israel. Cant have emotive words like “toddler” in headlines.

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                                #65
                                https://twitter.com/MairavZ/status/1027599111334154241

                                This is a crime under the Geneva Convention, if anyone cares .

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                                  #66
                                  But it's not as bad as Saying Something Bad In A Meeting. Where's your perspective and humanity, Nef?

                                  Comment


                                    #67
                                    Meanwhile we have this vile shit from the Sun

                                    https://twitter.com/steve_hawkes/status/1027814483413086208


                                    And the Jewish Chronicle editorial criticising Johnson still manages to make it all about Corbyn


                                    Imagine the outrage if a leading politician — a man, indeed, who could well be our next Prime Minister — had been revealed to have spoken sneeringly about Chasidic Jews, attacking their clothes and hats and implying that they somehow did not belong in Britain.

                                    It does not require much imagination, given the appalling comments by the Leader of the Opposition unearthed daily.

                                    But we are not referring to Mr Corbyn.
                                    Last edited by Nefertiti2; 11-08-2018, 15:56.

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                                      #68
                                      What's everybody's take on this?

                                      https://twitter.com/johnmcternan/sta...742447104?s=19

                                      https://twitter.com/johnmcternan/status/1028350132742447104?s=19

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                                        #69
                                        He's a cunt?

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                                          #70
                                          That.

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                                            #71
                                            For the tenth anniversary of the crash/ bail out crash Corbyn tweeted a short video marking the date and pointing out the bankers had not been held to account. He referenced in particular Morgan Stanley.

                                            Stephen Pollard editor of The Jewish Chronicle knows “Banker” always means “Jew”

                                            When called out he blamed Corbyn for making him do it.
                                            https://twitter.com/stephenpollard/status/1041076955985141760

                                            Comment


                                              #72
                                              Meanwhile Mark Serwotka has lbeen condemned as an antisemitic conspiracy theorist for asking if the Israeli Government could have been involved in portraying Corbyn and Labour as antisemitic.

                                              But the Manafort documents seem to show him working with a high ranking Israeli official to do just that for his clients in Ukraine- smearing people in the Obama camp as antisemites

                                              https://twitter.com/sfrantzman/status/1040668181344538624

                                              It seems kind of odd that you can’t accuse Israel of doing what other states do, using soft- and some times less soft- power techniques to try and control the narrative. Especially when there’s evidence - either in a US court or with the Shai Masot Israeli Embassy Labour Friends of Israel allegations when they’re caught on film.

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                                                #73
                                                Hang on, so Stephen Pollard is using the antisemitic trope of equating Jews with bankers?

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                                                  #74
                                                  Originally posted by ad hoc View Post
                                                  Hang on, so Stephen Pollard is using the antisemitic trope of equating Jews with bankers?
                                                  Only because Corbyn is so antisemitic he made him do it.

                                                  Jewdas is all over this

                                                  https://twitter.com/jewdas/status/1041265121631395841

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                                                    #75
                                                    Things you can't criticise because to do so will be antisemitic:
                                                    1. The occupation
                                                    2. Banks

                                                    What's next? People who travel?

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