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    Are they French or African?

    Trevor Noah received a letter of complaint from the French ambassador to the US after making a crack about Africa winning the World Cup, and delivers what amounts to a pitch-perfect editorial in response.

    Ambassador made the fair point that by stressing the Africaness of the many black layers in France's team, Noah was playing to those who seek to deny their Frenchness. Noah asks legitimately: why can't they be both? And explains why they can and should be free to be both.

    #2
    Some can also be three.
    Mbappés father is from Cameroon, his mother is from Algeria. I can't speak for them but it's possible that they feel Cameroonian-French, Algerian-French and the son who is born in France feels Cameroonian-Algerian-French.

    I'm Croatian-Swedish. Even on this board I've been asked from time to time which one I support in a World Cup. I get that a lot in life. Some of the times it's asked by people who obviously are fishing to check how much I've integrated into Swedish society.
    I also often in life get that thing where people attach certainties to my Croatian heritage. Right-wing people with some historical knowledge will assume that I am proud of ustashe. Other will assume that I hold the same views as they did. Those are.... interesting moments. I've even been called one here on OTF.

    It happens continuously. Questions whether I feel more Swedish or Croatian, when you can be both and I do feel like both. Comments or questions where you can sense that people take for granted because I'm Croatian I obviously stand behind everyone Croatian, am behind it when someone is behaving like a nationalistic Croatian right-wing cu**t, or as with the incident that idiot singer Thompson where I obviously support his entire career and songwriting unless I walk around with a gigantic sign, post it on twitter, facebook, instagram and what not, that I condemn him. Like it is my duty to do something about some other Croatian I don't even know, because I am one.

    Being tested, questioned, evaluated and lumped into a group, happens all the time. It's been part of my life and still is. Especially during times when Croatia do well in sports. I don't feel upset about it or anything. It's more of an interesting thing how it on one hand carries on with questioning about my swedishness and croatianess, at the same time assumed I must share certain views and stand behind certain actions related to some other Croatian bloke.

    Now, I'm not comparing myself to to what the Africans in France experience but I can identify a bit with what Noah said about being both. I joked a bit with my Swedish mates during the World cup how easy it is for them being 100 % Swedish, how much tougher the World cup was for us who were 100 % Swedish and 100 % Croatian, with double the anxiety, double the risk for a heart attack during a game etc. Called us The 200-percenters. Mbappé might very well be a 300-percenter. But that's individual and what you feel. Never something you can decide with a paper or passport.

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      #3
      Brilliant response from Noah, by the way.

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        #4
        It's tricky. Obama made a point of praising France for its inclusivity. But Noah's point that France considers migrants French when something positive happens, and African when something negative happens, perpetuates negative perceptions of the continent.

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          #5
          https://twitter.com/benmendy23/status/1019269986282598403

          I know that it is complicated in France and I can understand the pride that people from Africa have in children of Africans winning the world cup but it would be nice if people could be both.

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            #6
            Originally posted by G-Man View Post
            Are they French or African?

            Indian!

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              #7
              Originally posted by Vicarious Thrillseeker View Post
              It's tricky. Obama made a point of praising France for its inclusivity. But Noah's point that France considers migrants French when something positive happens, and African when something negative happens, perpetuates negative perceptions of the continent.
              Like Andy Murray being Scottish when he loses. (Although a bit more racist)

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                #8
                The players don't seem to like it very much, so I'm not with Noah on this one.

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                  #9
                  Imagine a hypothetical situation in fifteen years' time where all of the gifted young kids growing up in England with FIFA qualification to play for, say, Jamaica all decide to do exactly that, and Jamaica win the World Cup. Would we be claiming their win as an English one?

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by Flynnie View Post
                    The players don't seem to like it very much, so I'm not with Noah on this one.
                    I think the players don't like it because they are being exploited, from either side. Like with this Croatian fetish which I often am part of myself to point out that Joe Sakic parents are from Croatia, or Roger Maris, or Mario Andretti, and hundred more. I bet several of the French players do feel both, but that's a private and personal thing. When it's thrown out public they are being used, exploited.
                    And as if someone with an African heritage hasn't felt that bit with exploited enough.

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                      #11
                      I always found the decision by brothers Boateng interesting and made me happy for some reason at the same time.
                      Jerome's choice was to play for Germany.
                      Kevin's choice was to play for Ghana (and you vultures in the back can spare us the comment that he wouldn't make it into a German squad. )

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                        #12
                        Come to think of it, that's quite a thing in football when they start to court players, fight to get players and also give them hell if they chose the "wrong" national team. It's much more common that they get shit from where their parents are from, than from where they were born, as far as I have seen. There have been several cases in Sweden where someone with parents from former Yugoslavia decided to play for Sweden and people from where his parents came called him a traitor.

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                          #13
                          What Noah says makes a lot of sense, but it rather overlooks (or ignores) the way the French system works (or doesn't work). France has never pursued a policy of multiculturalism (whenever there is a terrorist attack in Paris there's always some commentator or other who uses it to opine that "multiculturalism has failed" which clearly makes no sense as France has never claimed or enacted a policy of multiculturalism.

                          Romania has a similar policy of assimilationism (because Romania basically takes all its systemic policies and constitution from France). Romania doesn't have an immigrant population to speak of but it does have large minority groups. The policy has a certain logic but the practice of it is massively flawed.

                          This is a good history of the way the policy has developed and been corrupted in France http://theconversation.com/the-long-...n-france-51530

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                            #14
                            Mesut Ozil has written movingly about his experience of feeling both German and Turkish. His home is Gelsenkirchen and he never feels the sentiment of belonging when he visits his ancestral town at the Black Sea. He feels German, but didn't do the German traditions like Christmas until he had a German girlfriend. When he had to decide whether to play for Germany or Turkey, he consulted the family. Mother and uncle advised Turkey; father said Germany -- all as a question of identity.

                            Ozil (and Gündigan) got himself into hot water for posing with Erdogan before the World Cup. Partly it's because Erdogan is a bad dude, but much of it had to do with Ozil and Gündogan departing from the 100% German script, with their loyalty called into question. There was little sympathy for the Noah doctrine: that you can be both.

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                              #15
                              There was an analogous circumstance a fortnight ago in Ireland, where a relay team featuring two athletes of Nigerian descent, and two of solely Irish background won medals in a European athletics championship. Beyond the customary reference to the benefits deriving from diversity, there was no suggestion that any of the four members were anything other than Irish, nor did the team themselves give a contrary opinion. Of course, any Irish person with English cousins will swiftly acknowledge that they appreciate both national elements in their character, but as for the OP, I would suggest to consider the French players to be primarily French, unless they themselves make reference to their heritage.

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                                #16
                                Originally posted by G-Man View Post
                                Mesut Ozil has written movingly about his experience of feeling both German and Turkish. His home is Gelsenkirchen and he never feels the sentiment of belonging when he visits his ancestral town at the Black Sea. He feels German, but didn't do the German traditions like Christmas until he had a German girlfriend. When he had to decide whether to play for Germany or Turkey, he consulted the family. Mother and uncle advised Turkey; father said Germany -- all as a question of identity.

                                Ozil (and Gündigan) got himself into hot water for posing with Erdogan before the World Cup. Partly it's because Erdogan is a bad dude, but much of it had to do with Ozil and Gündogan departing from the 100% German script, with their loyalty called into question. There was little sympathy for the Noah doctrine: that you can be both.
                                I think it was mostly Erdogan. If Leroy Sane had posed with the President of Senegal, I really doubt anybody would have cared.

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                                  #17
                                  That feeling of belonging, that's a tricky one. It's a mindset, a tough one and I've been lucky without knowing how and never will.
                                  I worked quite a long time at a company where several yearly travels to Croatia was part of the deal. When I went down there I could sense that they didn't think of me as a 100% Croatian even though I speak the language fluently, can explain my family history etc. But I speak sometimes as if I was ....behind in the head. Some of the words, I have to search for them in my mind. They would sometimes - once a few pints had been downed - even laugh about it. They would mock me but at the same time praise that I who had never been to school learning Croatian could speak it so well. Still, to them it was a bit as if someone Scottish could have spoken as well I do.
                                  Actually, not even some of my close family still living down there view me as 100% Croatian.

                                  In Sweden, I have for the larger part of my life experienced nothing but acceptance and inclusion. Still, there are those quite frequent moments when I'm asked where I come from. Nothing that bothers me at all. Only that it can really make you feel as people looking at you as not of them. Like plenty of adopted kids here in Sweden have explained. They're black, sit in a pub, speak Swedish better than the bloke asking "so, where do you come from"

                                  I reached a point somewhere, sometime when I don't know when I didn't even told myself, I simply woke up one day feeling "fu** it, I feel 100% both, and that's who I am. The feeling is more important than what other think or what's in any document". I'm 200%.

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                                    #18
                                    There was a similar controversy in America, by the way, where Landon Donovan posed with a Mexico scarf for Wells Fargo bank, and then told Carlos Bocanegra, a former US captain of Mexican descent, to be more in touch with his heritage* considering what's going on right now when Bocanegra criticized him for it.

                                    It did not go down well at all. Herculez Gomez, who is possibly the world's proudest Mexican-American and a former US cap, probably took himself off of Landycakes's Christmas card list for good.


                                    * incriminatingly, Donovan's father is Canadian and I have never heard him mention anything about feeling Canadian. Which I think plays into how whiteness factors here. Until it got pointed out by several people, a lot of the original buzz about "France's immigrants won the World Cup!" excluded the team's white players. Most of whom also have immigrant backgrounds of some kind.

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                                      #19
                                      Similar issues in Swizerland, in fact the SFA has caused a right mess shortly after the WC elimination when the secretary suggested double-nationals should not be allowed in the youth squads...which could have interesting results...

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                                        #20
                                        It's quite a precious gift, in my eyes, to be able to say that you are two thing.
                                        I sometimes feel sorry for African-Americans in that sense.
                                        I get the whole African-American thing and I get why a black woman or man would support Senegal in the world cup even though they're not from there. That's not the thing I'm trying to argue with, or argue about at all.
                                        But it's a very precious gift to be able to pinpoint it, to for instance be able to say I'm Nigerian-American, or Sudanese- American. A lot of people will never get the chance to do that. If they care I don't know.

                                        I always loved that scene in White men can't jump when they're out playing basketball pick-up games, Woody and Wesley, they're about to play against two black giants and want to start when one of the opponents says something along the lines (I don't remember the exact countries but the boards were painted as flags): "no, that's the Congo, you're shooting against Sudan"

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                                          #21
                                          Noah should have done some research into how African the players consider themselves to be.

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                                            #22
                                            As that good piece that ad hoc posted details, French attitudes on "assimilation" have been very strongly influenced by issues of race and religion since at least the mid 19th century. That's reflected in the fact that these questions weren't front of mind when the national team was relying on Kopa, Lech, Wisniewski, Djorkaeff pèrè, Piantoni, Platini, Fernandez, etc.

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                                              #23
                                              I think FIFA should allow players with mixed background to switch allegiance from one tournament to the next. I don't like this idea that players have to declare for a country and are locked-in for the rest of their career. It doesn't square with reality when some players genuinely feel torn between multiple allegiances. England were cruelly denied the services of Kevin Kilbane because of this.

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                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
                                                Noah should have done some research into how African the players consider themselves to be.
                                                His point is not about how the individual players feel, but about how they should be allowed to feel. If one of them decided to be a total French nationalist and demand France for the French only, that would be his prerogative.

                                                The French ambassador states a salient concern: referring to the players' colonial roots can be misused by bigots to deny their Frebchness. Alas, the ambassador then issues a pompous lecture. It would have been much better had he said something like: "We can understand why Africans feel pride in the accomplishments of the Frenbch players whose historical roots are in the continent. But we must also beware of et cetera..."

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                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by G-Man View Post
                                                  His point is not about how the individual players feel, but about how they should be allowed to feel. If one of them decided to be a total French nationalist and demand France for the French only, that would be his prerogative.
                                                  Yeah, exactly. Strange that I get a feeling this thread any second could start with the very opposite Noah is trying to say. Us on OTF debating what the French players really are and what they are not based on some document somewhere. And it's not even our thing to meddle in, or Noah's, what the French players consider themselves to be. That was kind of his point as well.

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