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La Vecchia Signora compra un vecchio gioiello: Calcio Italiano 2018-19

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    #51
    I would say that it is more that one cannot understand Italian attitudes to “economics” without understanding Italian culture, and not understand Italian “law” as it is applied in practice without understanding each of the others.

    But yeah.

    Comment


      #52
      They got far too sophisticated, far too soon. It's hard to argue with the ways of the first half of the 16th century when the first half of the sixteenth century has the sistine chapel on its side.

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        #53
        Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
        It’s a reflection of the fact that all Italian clubs are undercapitalised by “Top Five” standards and that lower league clubs are especially so, in many cases relying on a single family for funds (and getting virtually nothing from television or sponsorships, and not a lot at the gate). Lower division clubs are also much more susceptible to corruption of all kinds, as readers of the Miracle of Castel di Sangro will recall. What we are seeing now is somewhat similar to what happened in France about 20 years ago, when the football authorities got more serious about financial stability, and a lot of clubs went to the wall (though the situation in Italy is worse than it ever was in France).

        Bankruptcy regimes are quite similar across EU civil law countries. This has a lot more to do with culture and economics than with law.
        Do they have an equivalent of the DNCG (aka "le gendarme financier") in Italy?

        It’s not an easy problem to solve though, the cause of many clubs in France being placed in administration, or going under, is more bad management or/and internal conflicts than impropriety (of the asset-stripping Darren Brown type at Chesterfield – the mountebank responsible for the introduction of the "fit and proper persons test" in 2004 – or John Batchelor at York, Richardson at Doncaster etc.).

        It's improved in France as the DNCG (created in the aftermath of the huge Saint-Étienne "caisse noire" - slush fund- scandal) has strengthened the rules, as have the football authorities in England, there’s far more scrutiny and accountability than before but it’s still a big problem, a high number of French professional clubs plenty have been placed in administration in recent times, at least 15 in the last decade alone out of only ~60 professional clubs, with debts ranging from <€1m to €25m (Bastia, Strasbourg, Le Mans, Sedan, Evian Thonon-Gaillard, Arles-Avignon, Cannes, Grenoble, Gueugnon, Rouen, Calais, Vannes, Colmar and a few others). Municipalities used to rescue their clubs but not anymore as the sums have often become astronomical by French standards and times have moved on.

        A huge problem in England up until a few years ago too (it’s really slowed down in the last few years – stricter rules. Who was the last professional English club to go into administration, Coventry in 2013?):

        https://thisispop.wordpress.com/2010...aps-and-stats/

        Complete list of football clubs that have entered administration or a CVA in the last 25 years* (1984-2009):

        Charlton 1984
        Middlesbrough 1986
        Tranmere 1987
        Newport County 1989
        Walsall 1990
        Northampton 1992
        Kettering 1992
        Aldershot 1992
        Maidstone 1992
        Hartlepool 1994
        Barnet 1994
        Exeter 1994, 2003
        Gillingham 1995
        Doncaster 1997
        Millwall 1997
        Bournemouth 1997, 2008
        Darlington 1997, 2009
        Chester 1998, 2009
        Hereford 1998
        Portsmouth 1999, 2010
        Crystal Palace 1999, 2010
        Oxford Utd 1999
        Barrow 1999
        Swindon 2000, 2002
        Scarborough 2000
        Hull 2001
        QPR 2001
        Chesterfield 2001
        Leicester 2002
        Barnsley 2002
        Carlisle 2002
        Notts County 2002
        Bury 2002
        Bradford 2002
        Port Vale 2002
        Lincoln City 2002
        Swansea City 2002
        York 2002
        Halifax Town 2002, 2008
        Derby 2003
        Ipswich 2003
        Huddersfield 2003
        Oldham 2003
        MK Dons 2003
        Wimbledon 2003
        Wrexham 2004
        Cambridge 2005
        Crawley Town 2006
        Rotherham 2006, 2008
        Leeds United 2007
        Boston United 2007
        Southampton 2008
        Luton 2008
        Stockport 2009
        Salisbury 2009

        *Teams currently in the top five divisions of the football pyramid (and former Football League clubs) that have entered administration or a CVA in this period to the best of my knowledge/Google. This is the best list I’ve been able to come up with – please correct any mistakes. A raw data Google Docs spreadsheet file that I used is available here – use in any way that you want.

        And remember – this data uses ‘administration’ or a CVA as evidence of serious financial gloom. You can argue that Salisbury entering administration to clear a small debt and earning a mention is less cause for concern than the massive debt at Liverpool, Man Utd, Watford, etc. Non-League is even worse: a majority of teams in Conference North have been in some sort of serious financial crisis within the last few years.

        Comment


          #54
          There is a required review of club's financial viability before they are granted a license, but unlike France

          a) it is run by "football people" from the league/federation;
          b) its decisions can be appealed to the Italian Olympic Committee; and
          c) then appealed to the administrative courts

          It also has tended to avoid the lower reaches of Serie C (and everything below that)

          All of that means that it hasn't been as effective as the DNCG (or the German equivalent, which was the model for the DNCG).

          Comment


            #55
            Thanks. What's the name of the German one? Do they have that same problem there as in Italy and France? (on the same sort of scale I mean)

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              #56
              It's currently run within the DFL Deutsche Football Liga GMBH (the overall corporate entity for professional football), but includes professional auditors.

              They haven't had the same problem because the licensing conditions are strict and widely accepted. As a result, no club has gone bankrupt for more than 40 years.

              See pages 9-22 of this English-language presentation for more details.

              Comment


                #57
                Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                It's currently run within the DFL Deutsche Football Liga GMBH (the overall corporate entity for professional football), but includes professional auditors.

                They haven't had the same problem because the licensing conditions are strict and widely accepted. As a result, no club has gone bankrupt for more than 40 years.

                See pages 9-22 of this English-language presentation for more details.
                Very impressive. When they write, page 9, "No Bundesliga Club ever went bankrupt etc." they mean just the top flight I presume, it's still a stonking feat. Their 50+1 rule, and the governance system that existed before that rule (clubs were run by members' associations), preserves them from that I suppose.

                Comment


                  #58
                  I think that is actually the top two divisions (and the 3 Liga since it was formed a few years ago).

                  It is a reflection of a completely different mindset on a number of levels.

                  Comment


                    #59
                    BTW, the dysfunction of the Italian system, and particularly the availability of multiple appeals, is the reason why we are still uncertain as to which clubs will be in Serie B and Serie C for the upcoming season.

                    Comment


                      #60
                      Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                      There is a required review of club's financial viability before they are granted a license, but unlike France

                      a) it is run by "football people" from the league/federation;
                      b) its decisions can be appealed to the Italian Olympic Committee; and
                      c) then appealed to the administrative courts

                      It also has tended to avoid the lower reaches of Serie C (and everything below that)

                      All of that means that it hasn't been as effective as the DNCG (or the German equivalent, which was the model for the DNCG).
                      Given a) b) and c) what is the point of this body?

                      Comment


                        #61
                        Bella Figura, of course

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                          #62
                          It's such a beautiful language.

                          Comment


                            #63

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                              #64
                              God how I wish this is true. Sky sport claim that Maldini is only details away from being announced as executive vice-president in Milan.

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                                #65
                                And he's officially back. Nine long years of waiting for this is finally over!

                                Comment


                                  #66
                                  Sweden surprisingly make it to the quarter final
                                  Croatia make it to the final!
                                  Leonardo is back at the reins in Milan
                                  It's been warm and sun shining almost every day
                                  But this right here, this tops it all.

                                  There's been a constant flow of happiness on social media among Milan fans, a big smile all day long in this house, but reading those two words sent it into another level and is probably the best moment so far this year. I got Richter scale 12 goose bumps all over when reading them.



                                  What a summer!

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                                    #67
                                    Happy days!

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                                      #68
                                      Did pops ever change that hairstyle?
                                      Last edited by Satchmo Distel; 06-08-2018, 12:10.

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                                        #69
                                        Interesting article in yesterday’s Le Monde.fr on the parlous financial state of Italian football, especially in the lower leagues:

                                        http://cotetribunes.blog.lemonde.fr/...nent-pas-rond/

                                        Already 6 clubs have been placed in administration since the beginning of the summer and 175 professional clubs have met that same fate in the last 32 years (the vast majority of them in D3), some several times, hence this high number as there aren’t 175 pro clubs in Italy of course, only about half that. The article gives this link:

                                        I fallimenti nel calcio sono una consuetudine in Italia

                                        BARI E CESENA HANNO FATTO CRACK. DAL 1986 SONO 175 I CLUB CHE NON SI SONO ISCRITTI AI CAMPIONATI


                                        It’s not all doom and gloom as the Le Monde article points out, there are some uplifting stories of supporters rallying together to save their club and succeeding spectacularly, such as US Fasano in the Puglia region (sorry the bit below is obviously in French since it's an excerpt from this Le Monde article, I’ve tried to find details of this story in English or Italian but I’ve drawn a blank, but in summary: US Fasano was placed in admin in 2002 and again in 2012 and demoted to D9. The club was soon abandoned by all, coaching staff, board and municipality. Local ultras banded together to save their club from oblivion, raised funds and paid the operating expenses themselves before overseeing the running of the club through a supporters’ trust arrangement. Agst the odds, the club, renamed US Città di Fasano, has gone up several divisions since and is now in Serie D – D4, 9 regional groups, semi professional – and in a much healthier financial situation and with much higher gates):

                                        Dans certains cas, la faillite du club local permet d’assister à des scénarios dignes d’un film de Ken Loach. C’est ce qui s’est passé à Fasano, dans les Pouilles, où l’équipe locale fait faillite en 2002 puis en 2012. À ce moment-là, le club doit repartir du neuvième niveau, en seconda categoria. En décembre 2015, les dirigeants abandonnent leurs fonctions.

                                        Les ultras locaux se rassemblent au sein d’une association Il Fasano siamo noi (« Nous sommes Fasano ») et imposent un projet d’actionnariat populaire. Comme l’explique Totò : « nous nous sommes retrouvés à devoir être la seule alternative, car aussi bien l’administration communale que les entrepreneurs locaux ont tourné le dos au club ». Les ultras locaux ont du improviser et se retrousser les manches : « nous nous sommes retrouvés du jour au lendemain à payer les bus des déplacements, les restaurants, les fournisseurs ».

                                        Totò poursuit : « les amoureux des bleus et blancs nous ont suivi et en peu de temps nous avons constitué une association et nous sommes devenus les ‘’patrons’’ de notre club ». Les résultats suivent et Fasano est promu à deux reprises consécutives, pour finalement retrouver la série D pour la saison qui débute. Totò termine : « les résultats sont sous les yeux de tous : les rentrées financières ont triplé, tout comme la moyenne de spectateurs, il y a une gestion transparente des comptes et les résultats sportifs suivent ». Il reste néanmoins prudent : « nous pouvons être satisfaits, mais il reste encore beaucoup de travail à faire ».
                                        Last edited by Pérou Flaquettes; 06-08-2018, 12:13.

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                                          #70
                                          An Irish teen called Ryan Nolan has signed for Inter Milan:

                                          https://www.independent.ie/sport/soc...-37182753.html

                                          Comment


                                            #71
                                            Le Robbie Keane de nos jours

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                                              #72
                                              Mostly a novelty loss-leader, but CR7's Juve debut will be streamed pro gratis on Facebook:

                                              http://twitter.com/ElevenSports_UK/status/1026419286896766976
                                              Last edited by Diable Rouge; 06-08-2018, 13:45.

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                                                #73
                                                As Genoa is still trying to find its feet as a city after the tragic bridge collapse, both the Samp-Viola and Milan-Genoa 1° giornata matches have rightly been postponed.

                                                https://www.calciomercato.com/en/new...st-commo-97355

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                                                  #74
                                                  Right, here we go - a prediction. Inter to step up and give Juve their biggest run for their money this season. I initially placed Milan a bit higher, and then you get to a team and think 'Well, they're in better shape than Milan' and then you find another, and another, and before you know it you've moved them down to 9th.

                                                  01 Juventus
                                                  02 Inter
                                                  03 Napoli
                                                  04 Roma
                                                  05 Lazio
                                                  06 Atalanta
                                                  07 Fiorentina
                                                  08 Sampdoria
                                                  09 Milan
                                                  10 Sassuolo
                                                  11 Bologna
                                                  12 Genoa
                                                  13 Torino
                                                  14 Chievo
                                                  15 Udinese
                                                  16 Empoli
                                                  17 Frosinone
                                                  18 Cagliari
                                                  19 Spal
                                                  20 Parma
                                                  Last edited by Kevin S; 17-08-2018, 10:29.

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                                                    #75
                                                    Anyone subscribed to Eleven Sports yet?

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