You, me and PPV: CRO-ENG

[ad hoc]

Pickford will soon become a universal hate figure. On the pitch, he comes across as a most unpleasant individual.

He injured Mandzukic with a outstretched-leg, studs-up challenge. He tried to pull out of it, I think, so no red card, but he did injure the player. His reaction was more Harald Schumacher than Gigi Buffon.

Oh come on. I found Pickford shouting at Mandzukic as unpleasant as everyone else did, but the collision between them came as both were reaching and doing exactly what they should be. Mandzukic trying to get a shot in (which he did) and Pickford trying to save that shot (which he did). It was a completely blameless collision from both parties. Pickford's reaction afterwards wasn't but don't try and overegg this pudding

[tuckwat]

England fucked it up. All this talk about a bright future from the English pundits is bollocks. Missed opportunity. Last time England got to a World Cup Semi-Final they did not even qualify for the following World Cup.

[tuckwat]

And I hope Croatia win the final.

[ad hoc]

I'm somewhat intrigued by the notion that no one in Croatia, neither in conversations in bars or pundits on TV ever speculated about the possibility of being in the final. That no one in the whole country said, after France beat Belgium, "My god if we reach the final, how the hell will we stop Mbappe?" or that no one there ever commented that being on this side of the draw was pretty lucky (or that facing England in the semi final was better than facing either Belgium or France).

I'm actually genuinely happy for PPV but part of me wants to shake him and tell him to enjoy it rather than trying to find every negative thing he can about the diverse English media

[Patrick Thistle]

England fucked it up. All this talk about a bright future from the English pundits is bollocks. Missed opportunity. Last time England got to a World Cup Semi-Final they did not even qualify for the following World Cup.

I thought that. Following the form, they'll be staying home for Qatar '22.

[Ray de Galles]

The thing is, they have a partial home tournament in Euro 2020. Though I’m hoping it is their Euro 92 to the Italia 90 they’ve just had, right down to the neighboring country unexpectedly winning it.

[ad hoc]

If Denmark is a neighbouring country then that leaves a lot of possibilities of unexpected winners. Denmark again, Norway, Sweden, Netherlands, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, NI, Faroes, Iceland, Luxembourg(?), Germany (ho ho).

[SouthdownRebel]

In a post-Brexit Europe we'll get knocked out on a walk over when the Irish reject our emergency visa application for the last-16 fixture in Dublin

[Ray de Galles]

If Denmark is a neighbouring country then that leaves a lot of possibilities of unexpected winners. Denmark again, Norway, Sweden, Netherlands, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, NI, Faroes, Iceland, Luxembourg(?), Germany (ho ho).

Er, I meant neighbouring England, can you guess who?

[Hot Orange]

I agree with PPV (and Modric) about the punditry. Rio Ferdinand is part of that so-called "golden generation" that completely fell on its arse in international football, and it's pretty apparent that he has learned nothing from the experience. ITV's pundits were hugely patronising towards Croatia - I didn't see the pre-game chat, but at half time the talk was of how England could just turn it on in the second half and win 3-0. It was really disrespectful. Roy Keane rightly laid into them afterwards, as he had done previously, for talking as though England were already in the final. The three of them laughed at him, again.

I didn't notice Keane's opinion differing greatly from the rest of them at half-time. He was talking about how Croatia were there for the taking and, if England didn't win the game from there, they would for ever regret passing up this opportunity to reach the final. But then again, it seemed fair enough on the evidence of the first half. There was plenty of talk of Croatia being poor, but I don't think that view was a patronising "Croatia are poor, England should always beat them", it was "Croatia have been surprisingly poor in the first half and don't look half as good as we expected them to be, England have a good chance here if they can maintain their level of performance."

Having said that, they were still all pissing me off, so I went to do the washing up after a couple of minutes and may have missed the worst of it.

[Wouter D]

Despite his great interviews and waistcoat, Southgate still doesn't strike me as a particularly astute manager, a bit like Martinez. Both have decent teams to field but the art of adjustment to changes in the opposition seems lost to them

Did you not see the manner in which Belgium adapted to every opponent this tournament? The Belgium that lined up against Brazil was quite a different beast from the Belgium in preceding games.

[ad hoc]

Er, I meant neighbouring England, can you guess who?

I can guess who you meant, but that was why I suggested that if Denmark is one of England's neighbours there are lots of possibilities.

[Ray de Galles]

I can guess who you meant, but that was why I suggested that if Denmark is one of England's neighbours there are lots of possibilities.

No, I meant host’s Sweden’s neighbours Denmark won in 92 so I was hoping the partial hosts (and exclusive hosts of the semis and final) England’s neighbours Wales win in 2020.

Though Scotland winning it would be cool too.

[ad hoc]

Ah sorry, I misunderstood you. Didn't realise you were talking about neighbouring the hosts

[ad hoc]

https://twitter.com/IainR0bertson/status/1017143415207800833

[tuckwat]

Of course Denmark were only at Euro 92 because Croatia was being "created" at the time.

[steveeeeeeeee]

Modric is a hell of a player, but a fairly poor winner, eh?

And a total hypocrite. He's spun the same complaint and insult as Goran Ivanisovic on the same day, so clearly influenced by an England baiting Croatian press.

The English media are far from perfect, but other countries in Europe really struggle with the English culture of self-deprication, it's coming home being totally centered on decades of hope and failure, opposed to a belief that England deserve victory.

[Patrick Thistle]

The board was glitching earlier and my post got lost.

It was in relation to PPV's comment about Lineker et al looking ahead to the France game. I pointed out the commentators were much worse at looking ahead to a game with France at Euro 2016.

Must be a thing about impending games with France.

[Hot Orange]

Suggesting a team may be tired after two consecutive extra-time and penalties games doesn't seem particularly hubristic or patronising, or whatever Modric felt it was.

In fact, isn't it the opposite of that? Isn't there a suggestion that England might have needed a helping hand to get through, and Croatia's potential fatigue after two tough games could have been that?

[N est à?]

If anything, the suggestion was, hey Croatia have fallen off since the group stage and failed to put away two technically inferior teams- let's hope they struggle against another one!

Not that there weren't a few people getting carried away. I guess if Dalic used a few judiciously selected examples of english hubris to get his players going, it worked.

[Pietro Paolo Virdis]

I'm actually genuinely happy for PPV but part of me wants to shake him and tell him to enjoy it rather than trying to find every negative thing he can about the diverse English media

I'm not explaining myself well.

I don't give a shit about how the English media or pundits do their thing. I really don't. But for the sake of the good people here on OTF and other I know outside of it who want to see England win it some day, that kind of stuff must stop. It isn't helpful at all and I truly believe it has a a very negative effect on players, manager etc. It sets a tone and it sets a pressure which works against the team.

[nmfnp1977]

Despite his great interviews and waistcoat, Southgate still doesn't strike me as a particularly astute manager, a bit like Martinez. Both have decent teams to field but the art of adjustment to changes in the opposition seems lost to them.

And yet the love for Southgate is set to continue for a while yet, I feel.

[steveeeeeeeee]

But you'd imagine the players hope to win it some day far more than the fans.

[ad hoc]

Lest we imagine that hubris and egotism is exclusively a preserve of the English

https://twitter.com/ESPNFC/status/1017334900884680704

[Satchmo Distel]

Just home and no complaints from me, England were outplayed and out-thought from just before half time onwards (barring a decent spell in the first half of extra time, while Croatia were regrouping).

No doubt the revisionism will start soon and the Satchometer will decree that England were actually only the 17th best team in the tournament but overall Southgate made the most of what he had, it's not his fault English football produces Hendersons and Diers and not Modrics, and he took them further than we expected.

I've had an absolute blast, it's all been a bonus - I'll be 54 the next time I get to watch World Cup games in the sunshine, wearing shorts and having a laugh with my mates, so I've made the most of it. I'm about 10% as gutted as I was in 1990, unexpectedly, but I'm older and I've got plenty more in my life. For the next three days I'll be getting pissed in a field with my son, watching an array of metal, punk and indie bands, and I wouldn't want to be anywhere else.

I've not looked at the news for the reaction but can report from Carlisle that it was all quite good natured afterwards, disappointment and pride rather than anger and aggression.

Edit - and congrats PPV, I can get my Hrvatska sweatshirt out again now.

Not sure why you think I would rate them 17th. I stated a few days ago that France and Belgium are clearly top two but then there is a bunch of teams close together that is very hard to rank. England are somewhere in that 3-10 range but where exactly is a purely subjective call.

I would also not agree with any revisionism. This was the most cohesive and well coached England side since Euro 96, despite having far less talent and experience than the Beckham Scholes Owen sides.