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Defending champions who were better on paper but worse on grass

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    Defending champions who were better on paper but worse on grass

    Legend has it that England went to the 1970 World Cup more heavily favoured to win it than the 1966 team had been. The young Alan Ball had matured into a title winner with Everton, and others like Mullery, Labone, Franny Lee and Jeff Astle were bound to bring the trophy home.

    In 1982, several of Argentina's World Cup winners like Ardiles and Kempes were now playing in Europe, and Argentina also had the mercurial young Diego Maradona.

    And in 2002, similarly, quite a lot of what was a relatively young French side from 1998 were now established star players at their clubs, or even galacticos.

    Fair assessment? Any other defending champions fall into this set?
    Last edited by Rogin the Armchair fan; 23-06-2018, 17:00.

    #2
    Everyone knew France were going to be clown shoes in 2002: Pirès missed the tournament completely through injury , Zidane went in to it carrying a thigh problem & could only play in the final group game and the defence were aging and fading fast (particularly Leboeuf).

    I made £900 betting on them to lose to Senegal at 9-1 and I barely ever bet - it was just such easy money it was impossible to turn down.
    Last edited by Ray de Galles; 23-06-2018, 22:33.

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      #3
      In 1982, Brazil and West Germany were clear favourites. I think it wa s assumed that Argentina got lucky in 1978 and the Malvinas would be a distraction.

      2002 there were big doubts about it being a tournament too far for them. Spain were probably more fancied in 2014 than France in 2002.

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        #4
        Originally posted by Rogin the Armchair fan View Post
        Legend has it that England went to the 1970 World Cup more heavily favoured to win it than the 1966 team had been. The young Alan Ball had matured into a title winner with Everton, and others like Mullery, Labone, Franny Lee and Jeff Astle were bound to bring the trophy home.

        In 1982, several of Argentina's World Cup winners like Ardiles and Kempes were now playing in Europe, and Argentina also had the mercurial young Diego Maradona.

        And in 2002, similarly, quite a lot of what was a relatively young French side from 1998 were now established star players at their clubs, or even galacticos.

        Fair assessment? Any other defending champions fall into this set?
        Seems somewhat harsh on England - wasn't Bobby Charlton's substitution generally regarded as totally changing the balance of play in the quarter-final?

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          #5
          The conditions were probably the biggest difference between 1966 and 1970.

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            #6
            Let's see how tonight's game goes. But we could be adding Germany 2018 to the list.

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              #7
              It would be the biggest upset of the list due to having always gotten out of the group since that format was introduced. They were also pre-tournament favourites.

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                #8
                Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
                The conditions were probably the biggest difference between 1966 and 1970.
                That and the refereeing.

                How are this german team supposed to be even stronger on paper? They were a mess going into the tournament. Neuer was coming back from nine months out. Hummels is four years slower, Lahm has retired. Khedira was inadequate in 2014 and age has withered him. There's no Klose, and fucking thomas muller has barely scored a goal since may 2016. Marco Reus has missed half of three of the last four season through injury, and at 29 has a great future behind him.

                The biggest challenge facing World cup winners is getting the right players to fuck off before the next tournament. You just can't get rid of them through choice.

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                  #9
                  Jesus, TAB. Who has a better squad on paper then? Germany have to be top 4.

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                    #10
                    it's not better than it was in 2014 which I thought was the point of the title.

                    Germany's great advantage wasn't ever the individual quality of the players, it was that as a result of the national coaching overhaul started in response to the Euro 2000 disaster, they had a way of playing and level of understanding far beyond virtually every other team in international football (apart from Spain who had done exactly the same thing)

                    That 2014 squad was made up of a Bayern Squad who had reached three out of the five previous CL finals, and a bunch of dortmund players that had also reached the CL final. 2014 was their peak. They haven't done enough to give the next generation a chance. They had a relatively unsuccessful summer at underage level last year, because they made everyone play two years above their level, because the u-21's went off to win the confederations cup. There's no excuse for the state of the squad other than Low has been there too long, and you can't shoot a world champion.

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                      #11
                      You misread the title. It's not comparing the winning team to the team 4 years later. It's whether the defending champions live up to their perceived potential.

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                        #12
                        And the perceived potential was quite high. Most of those players play for the best clubs in the best leagues and have collected several medals this season across the continent.

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                          #13
                          England were surprisingly good in 1970.

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                            #14
                            Yes, I was looking for defending champions who appeared stronger than their predecessors (not just everyone else). TAB's assessment of the Germans in 2018 does seem somewhat after the event, given that they came here as confed cup champions, had won 10 straight games in qualifying, and will probably now go on to retain their title.

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                              #15
                              Rogin, there were three players from the confederations cup final in the team that played mexico. (six tonight) they sent a very young team to that competition.

                              Also all of the things I said above were obvious before the tournament as well. If you had seen any of their warm up games you could see that they weren't good enough or sharp enough to pull off their preferred style of playing, and that has obvious effects. (i.e. you can see it in their much more exposed defence)

                              They will have an exciting time in the next round
                              Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 23-06-2018, 21:04.

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                                #16
                                Originally posted by Diable Rouge View Post
                                Seems somewhat harsh on England - wasn't Bobby Charlton's substitution generally regarded as totally changing the balance of play in the quarter-final?
                                Generally perceived as Ramsey taking Charlton off at 2-0 to save him for the semi-final which allowed Beckenbauer to move forward. In reality Beckenbauer had already scored to make it 2-1 before Charlton substitution.

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                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Chemin-de-fairy View Post
                                  England were surprisingly good in 1970.
                                  Though there are contrary views.

                                  http://www.wsc.co.uk/the-archive/963...better-than-66

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                                    #18
                                    every england player finished every game in 1970 near death. I don't think people really can take on board just how difficult conditions were for those players.

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                                      #19
                                      Germany won't win the World Cup, but they have excellent depth in their squad, perhaps more than any other side. But that creates a selection problem: how do you find the right combination. The games against Mexico and Sweden have shown that he has yet to arrive at that mix.

                                      Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
                                      every england player finished every game in 1970 near death. I don't think people really can take on board just how difficult conditions were for those players.
                                      And their opponents didn't have to contend with the same conditions?

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                                        #20
                                        They did, but the english game doesn't transfer well to the heat. When people talk about Bobby Charlton being taken off to protect him for the semi final, they should really be saying "so he didn't suffer a serious medical incident."

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