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Why Would England Winning The World Cup Be A Bad Thing?

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    #51
    For me (Clive) this isn't about being AEB or left/right. In many ways I'd be delighted if England won, while at the same time harbouring a concern about the more xenophobic elements of our society getting a boost out of it.

    That's a concern I wouldn't have about the English cricket team winning their world cup, because as far as I know that team has no attached history of racist support.

    There is a middle ground here where it's ok to be a bit conflicted.

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      #52
      Originally posted by SouthdownRebel View Post
      That's a concern I wouldn't have about the English cricket team winning their world cup, because as far as I know that team has no attached history of racist support.
      Sure. Upper middle class Tories are never racists.

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        #53
        Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
        Sure. Upper middle class Tories are never racists.
        Yeah, but they're not daft enough to smash up St Johns Wood during a test match. They have other people do it for them on the streets of [insert European city].

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          #54
          It wasn't just your poor, skinhead, flag wearing white van men who voted Brexit. It's the Mail reading, Waitrose shopping, Women's Institute / village cricket club stalwarts who make snide remarks about "darkies" and jokes about Muslims, who voted for Boris and the twatbus roadshow.

          And those people hate football.

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            #55
            Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
            It wasn't just your poor, skinhead, flag wearing white van men who voted Brexit. It's the Mail reading, Waitrose shopping, Women's Institute / village cricket club stalwarts who make snide remarks about "darkies" and jokes about Muslims, who voted for Boris and the twatbus roadshow.

            And those people hate football.
            They'll like football if England win the World Cup.

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              #56
              Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
              It wasn't just your poor, skinhead, flag wearing white van men who voted Brexit. It's the Mail reading, Waitrose shopping, Women's Institute / village cricket club stalwarts who make snide remarks about "darkies" and jokes about Muslims, who voted for Boris and the twatbus roadshow.

              And those people hate football.
              Well, obviously.

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                #57
                Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View Post
                They'll like football if England win the World Cup.
                They really won't.

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                  #58
                  Well first of all, aw shucks - I think - but actually I think a great many England fans are like me; unavoidably tied to the fortunes of the national side, continually embarrassed both by the team, the antics of some of its followers and the media circus around it. (Much like following Shrewsbury, bar the media bit.) But not racists, supremacists or apologists for empire. And a great many are like E10; as above, but arsed to actually go to England games (which I've never done.) I'm all to well aware what England fans are remembered for in Marseilles or, less harmful but equally as stupid, the 'pilots' in SA.

                  But people will always remember what presses their buttons. I'll always remember when I moved to Glos being told by a resident in-law that Gloucester was "pretty much all black and Asian now." At the time it was about 8% BAME. But fear of the other, fuelled by a racist media and insular upbringing, meant that 92% of the faces she saw were invisible. So we'll all remember the cunts who chanted No Surrender and threw beer glasses, but not the rest who weren't in that square or who'd fucked off home cringing in embarrassment. My direct experience of eg Cardiff fans is that they are pretty much all violent fuckwits. They've threatened me, beaten up my friends, trashed my town, spat and urinated on old people out shopping, thrown bricks, coins and seats... And all because of football. But I'm prepared to believe that the cunts doing that aren't more than a small percentage of people from Cardiff. (I'm sure Ray or Harry will advise me on this. Smiley thing.)

                  I agree the 2012 Olympics/Paras weren't unproblematic, but my point is that it was an inclusive smugfest in which there was a genuinely widely held understanding that the nation was multi-cultural and multi-racial.

                  I also agree the British perspective of history is skewed and fucked; this is partly a media thing, partly an educational thing and partly a post-colonial adjustment phase that we're just not very good at. We resentfully pretended to ourselves that our work was done and that relinquishing the colonies was a voluntary act. I suspect the establishment of the Commonwealth was probably a big factor in allowing too many people to kid themselves that the Empire was a charitable institution devoted to the education and development of poor dark people. I'd disagree it's a perception that's becoming more widespread though. The reality of empire is probably better understood than at any previous point in my lifetime. Not a high bar, I know, but take it from me if you'd lived through the '60s and '70s, you'd see current attitudes with a different perspective.

                  But all that aside, i've not seen anything to persuade me that any sporting outcome wouldn't be used in some way by the right. Failure is down to 'too many foreigners in the EPL' or 'cheating foreign refs', or the wrong coach, or whatever. Victory is down to... umm.. well I haven't found that out yet. But I'm quite sure 1966 looms so large because it's so unbalanced by anything before or since. Maybe a bit more success would help. As Bryan says, we'll never know. However, I'm fairly sure nationalism isn't something that'll be shifted by scoring or conceding a few goals. It's more long-term and complex than that. Being a sporting superpower didn't hold the USSR together and swimming medals didn't keep the STASI in power. The Brexit vote was a few days after England had failed to score against Slovakia and finished second in their group IIRC. The next election isn't for 4 years, Brexit will be such an unmitigated disaster that winning the Worlds, Euros and U-7 egg and spoon in perpetuity isn't going to paper over it. The Mail will pump poison whatever, the BBC will dance to the Tory tune whatever, the Murdoch empire will print lies whatever...


                  FYI, the Shrewsbury board is horrible and I never post, just check in for gossip on signings etc. The best example would be recently when Stan Collymore wrote in the Guardian that ‘The thing white men hate most is outspoken black men’ and several board members did their best to prove his point beautifully with repeated use of "playing the race card".

                  Also, apologies to SD whose line about black men called Raheem and Alli I inadvertently nicked and I've only just realised. And what SDR and PT said about Brexit.

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                    #59
                    Originally posted by Defensive minded
                    Reminds me of 1988, when failure was attributed to a great extent to John Barnes.
                    I would argue that football has played a role in changing the mainstream opion on black people. Racism is often down to ignorance and I'm sure people like John Barnes, Ian Wright, Paul Ince etc have played a part in changing the views of many people who may not interact much with non-white people in their everyday life.
                    100%. For Shrewsbury see Vic Kasule.

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                      #60
                      Originally posted by ChrisJ View Post
                      100%. For Shrewsbury see Vic Kasule.
                      Or 'Sir' Mickey Brown.

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                        #61
                        Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
                        Sure. Upper middle class Tories are never racists.
                        Is this what we're pretending cricket crowds are like then?

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                          #62
                          The depressing thing with national sporting triumphs by and large is that they are normally always appropriated (rather, cynically exploited) by people in power for their own ends.

                          It is my understanding that the juntas of Brazil and Argentina derived a lot of capital from their respective world cup wins in the 70s. I would guess that Mussolini spun Italy's two world cup wins in the 30's as a vindication of fascism.

                          it's perfectly lamentable that opportunistic scumbags are put in position to claim credit for something that they played no meaningful or substantive role in.
                          Last edited by Cesar Rodriguez; 25-06-2018, 06:24.

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                            #63
                            Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
                            I don't think the issue is just appropriation by Neanderthals; it's the fact that, like the 1977 Jubilee or 1981 Royal Wedding, it creates a false feelgood factor, brushing the bad economic news under the carpet. It adds a few percent to the Tory vote or at least reduces the attractiveness of voting against the government.

                            It will also create a nostalgia industry that pollutes the schedules for years and which is imposed on the Scots and Welsh without their consent. Sir Harry Kane picks his Desert Island Discs, for fuck's sake.
                            To the first comment, perhaps, but only for idiots and ostriches. Worrying about having to be a part of 'their' world isn't (for my money) reason to wish against a hugely-unlikely eventuality on the football field.

                            As for the culture that this might create, so what? Let the gimps have what they want - they will do anyway, regardless of how well (or badly) England fare. Nobody's making you listen to World Cup Desert Island Discs - just as nobody's already making you watch Celebrity Britain's Got Talent, or whatever. Choose, or create an alternative.

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                              #64
                              Is there any evidence England's success in 1990 helped the Tories? I would have thought probably not, what with Moynihan making a tit out of himself on a regular basis.

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                                #65
                                Isn't the better option of two here if England win the entire thing and the racists are beaten over the head with the fact that several of the players in the squad are black?

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                                  #66
                                  Originally posted by Flynnie View Post
                                  Is there any evidence England's success in 1990 helped the Tories? I would have thought probably not, what with Moynihan making a tit out of himself on a regular basis.
                                  No, at the time the Tories were in a deeply unpopular period on the back of the poll tax, culminating in them kicking out Thatcher in November 1990.

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                                    #67
                                    Originally posted by Pietro Paolo Virdis View Post
                                    Isn't the better option of two here if England win the entire thing and the racists are beaten over the head with the fact that several of the players in the squad are black?
                                    It doesn't work like that. It just feeds into the idea of "the good immigrant".

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                                      #68
                                      Many good replies to this thread. I am glad I started it because it's one of the best set of replies I have ever read on an OTF thread. Thanks to everyone.

                                      I agree with those who say the political consequences are overstated and, as Jah says, you can avoid most of the cultural effects by switching channels, as we are no longer in the era of only having three TV stations.

                                      However, I can still imagine some people feeling trapped. How do you tune out an office of jingoistic twats if you are in a minority of one? Where do you go for a quiet pint? How do you go to the Guardian homepage without being bombarded with England homecoming stories? How do you avoid the innumerable times it will be slipped into places it does not belong like your favourite panel show?
                                      Last edited by Satchmo Distel; 25-06-2018, 11:46.

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                                        #69
                                        Originally posted by EIM View Post
                                        It doesn't work like that. It just feeds into the idea of "the good immigrant".
                                        I disagree. If I use Sweden as example many are on the fence and think about voting for right wing SD come September but a large amount of them are leaning towards SD because of the disappointment with those who have been in power until now, not so much anti-immigrants. A thing like this can make many of these decide not to vote for SD because let's be honest, idiots are in a minority. I can sense only after this thing with Durmaz and how he was attacked in media, how SD are being condemned.

                                        But that's Sweden, so maybe it's a lot worse in England, which I honestly have a hard time thinking. Few countries have swung into swinery as swiftly as Sweden past 4-6 years. And that's both far right/far left.

                                        Edit: But I get the good immigrant thing. Morons always find an excuse.
                                        Last edited by Pietro Paolo Virdis; 25-06-2018, 11:56.

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                                          #70
                                          Exhibit A:

                                          https://mobile.twitter.com/LiamFox/s...67076209254401

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                                            #71
                                            Originally posted by Diable Rouge View Post
                                            Yes. Harry Kane scoring a goal is a bad thing because Liam Fox.

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                                              #72
                                              Who sponsors a civil service team?

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                                                #73
                                                That'll be the Scotsman Liam Fox.

                                                Hang on: "Disgraced former Scotsman Dr. Liam Fox".

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                                                  #74
                                                  Well if the England team doing well is bad because an Australian is a dick, Im sure they’ll be happy to take responsibility for Scots Tories too.

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                                                    #75
                                                    Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
                                                    Who sponsors a civil service team?
                                                    Someone who wants a lucrative contract?

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