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Does Every Club Have A 'Natural' Level?

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    Does Every Club Have A 'Natural' Level?

    Some clubs seem to have a natural 'yo-yo' level, e.g. Barnsley being somewhere between top half of the third tier and bottom six of the second tier. Does your club have one?

    How do fans cope with being on a constant promotion-relegation cycle?

    #2
    I think the middle of the second division is Bolton's natural level. Occasionally we flirt with the first and third divisions, but we know our place.

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      #3
      Birmingham City too, I'd say.

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        #4
        I think your own club's natural level largely depends on where they were when you started being a real fan. Hence, for me Sheffield Wednesday's natural level is the third division, and most of my adult life we've been punching above our weight, leaving me to be largely happy with my lot. For fans born between about 1978 and 1985 we ought to be a top flight (and in some cases quite a good top flight) outfit. Hence those people are always (it seems from messageboards) angry and disappointed.

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          #5
          Originally posted by ad hoc View Post
          I think your own club's natural level largely depends on where they were when you started being a real fan. Hence, for me Sheffield Wednesday's natural level is the third division, and most of my adult life we've been punching above our weight, leaving me to be largely happy with my lot. For fans born between about 1978 and 1985 we ought to be a top flight (and in some cases quite a good top flight) outfit. Hence those people are always (it seems from messageboards) angry and disappointed.
          I was starting to compose a similar reply for Carlisle. On average we were a solid second tier side from 1964 to 1986 (with a giddy year in the top flight and a few in the third, but otherwise residing in the second and competing with "the likes of" Sunderland and Blackburn) so anyone over 50 still thinks our natural level is the second division.

          Post 1986 we've had a mirror image of the above - usually in the fourth, with a year in the Conference and a few in the third, and anyone under 40 would see the fourth division as our level.

          I'm 46 so straddle the divide - I accept the fourth is our level these days and know the game has changed enough that we'd struggle to hold our own consistently in the second division now, but can't help but think we should occasionally be up there.

          In response generally, clubs have moved around that much in the time I've watched football that there are few clubs (mainly at the top end of the top flight) that can claim a definite natural level, but that won't stop their fans claiming it to be higher than it currently is, or has tended to be.

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            #6
            I think most people think their clubs natural level is a (at least) a few places higher than they usually are.

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              #7
              I feel that Burnley's natural level realistically is mid-to-lower Second Division. What is odd is that they've not spent all that much time at it.

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                #8
                Originally posted by ad hoc View Post
                I think your own club's natural level largely depends on where they were when you started being a real fan. Hence, for me Sheffield Wednesday's natural level is the third division, and most of my adult life we've been punching above our weight, leaving me to be largely happy with my lot. For fans born between about 1978 and 1985 we ought to be a top flight (and in some cases quite a good top flight) outfit. Hence those people are always (it seems from messageboards) angry and disappointed.
                This basically. I generally feel we're punching above our weight when higher than the third level. Mainly because QPR only ever spent one season above that prior to 1967, so it still feels like home. Obviously most younger fans have quite different expectations but, in my head, we're still the Rochdale of Div 3 South.

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                  #9
                  Liverpool should be winning the title once every five years or so and finishing third or fourth the rest of the time. Apart from the winning the title bit (I'm looking at you, 1997, 2002 and 2014) they've kind of done that.

                  Exeter should be in League One, which is what makes the last two years' playoff defeats harder to bear (although both clubs we lost to belong in League One too).
                  Last edited by Rogin the Armchair fan; 06-06-2018, 17:03.

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by ad hoc View Post
                    I think your own club's natural level largely depends on where they were when you started being a real fan. Hence, for me Sheffield Wednesday's natural level is the third division, and most of my adult life we've been punching above our weight, leaving me to be largely happy with my lot. For fans born between about 1978 and 1985 we ought to be a top flight (and in some cases quite a good top flight) outfit. Hence those people are always (it seems from messageboards) angry and disappointed.
                    Heh, I was born in 1978 and I think of us as a top flight club, mainly because that's where we were throughout my youth. The facts don't support that at all though, all our time at the top level is within the first half of my supporting life. Wind it back further and you find that over the last half century for every season we've spent in the first we've had two outside of it.

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                      #11
                      It isn't just results, though.

                      It is also the size and prominence of the city, ground, number of competing teams in the region, etc.

                      If Bournemouth turn out to replicate Wednesday's last three decades (with their current patch being the late 70s-mid 80s equivalent), I don't think that their supporters in 2050 will think of them as "belonging" in the top flight

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                        #12
                        I think Shrewsbury are round about their natural level now, which is why what felt like a genuine shot at promotion to the Championship last season was so exciting. Yes, we had a decade in Div 2 from 79-89 (which I remember from childhood), but football has changed a lot and they were punching above their weight then.

                        Since 2006-7 the fulcrum between leagues one and two has been their domain, including 3 play off campaigns with two losing finals, 2 promotions, 1 relegation and a narrow escape. Again, being at the right end of League 1 for most of the year made for an exciting season this season just gone.

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by Etienne View Post
                          I think most people think their clubs natural level is a (at least) a few places higher than they usually are.
                          ...or a division in Cardiff City's case.

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by Rogin the Armchair fan View Post
                            Liverpool should be winning the title once every five years or so and finishing third or fourth the rest of the time. Apart from the winning the title bit (I'm looking at you, 1997, 2002 and 2014) they've kind of done that.
                            They definitely shouldn't be appearing in the Champions' League final and winning it as much as they do.

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by Rogin the Armchair fan View Post

                              Exeter should be in League One, which is what makes the last two years' playoff defeats harder to bear (although both clubs we lost to belong in League One too).
                              I don’t think ”League One” can be anyone’s natural level given the term is a recent and inaccurate affectation.

                              Let’s not normalise this kind of nonsense, people will be referring to “the Prem” next and I’ll be forced to close the site down.

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                                #16
                                14 years, Ray. A full third of my life.

                                I'm a bit scared by that stat.

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                                  #17
                                  Surely TonTon to thread?

                                  Anyway, I'd thought about starting a Shrinking Giants thread, which sort of ties in with this. Those clubs that used to be massive, but have now become middling or even titchy. Charlton seem like a good example - apparently used to get 75000, but could surely never do again?

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                                    #18
                                    I had a season ticket throughout the 90s, so Southampton's 17th placed finish this season felt just about right for me, after an anomalous few years that have raised expectations within certain elements of our fanbase.

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                                      #19
                                      Exeter's natural level is Division Three (South).

                                      I don't think anyone in the League below the top tier (Arsenal, Everton) has a more natural level than ECFC. We have never been in the second tier, barely even got close. Rochdale used to be our northern counterparts, but then they got ideas above their station. And they've stayed out of the fifth.

                                      Rip Van Devon Winkle would recognize us when he woke up.

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                                        #20
                                        This is one bit of fandom I've never really got. For all its faults, football is still more or less a meritocracy.

                                        We're a Conference team. We're not quite good enough to be in the league, especially after it all went to shit after Keates took the Walsall job.

                                        I'd think most of our more sensible fans would claim it to be somewhere fluctuating between Division 3 and 4. The rabid Red Passion nutjobs would probably think every season should be like 1977/78.

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                                          #21
                                          I find it hard to place us - before 1999 we were a top division non-league team historically, be that Southern Premier League, or Conference after it was formed (albeit it took us 7 years to get there).

                                          I started supporting the club in 1994/95, so I remember the Southern League days and promotion back to the Conference in 1997. We only spent two seasons back there before entering the Football League, where, but for one season 2 years ago, we've been a third or fourth tier team, leading to younger fans to have far greater expectations than our older fans.

                                          Basically - anyone older than me considers us a decent sized non-league team, anyone younger than me considers us a decent sized fourth tier team.

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                                            #22
                                            Reading have gradually shifted theirs by about one division following Majedski's buyout. My poor stepfather (1922-2001) followed them all his life and I'm not sure they were ever out of the 3rd and 4th in his experience. Since he died they've been in the top flight more than once and are hanging on in the lower reaches of Division 2. So the lower 2nd - upper 3rd seems to be the new zone.

                                            My other "home" side Maidenhead United are in nosebleed territory lately holding their own in the Fifth tier. I don't think they've ever been that high. Following the "earliest memory" rule their natural level is whatever is the modern equivalent of the Berger Isthmian League.

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                                              #23
                                              Yeah, last season’s fifth tier campaign was an absolute high water mark in Maidenhead’s history.
                                              Last edited by Ray de Galles; 06-06-2018, 21:55.

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                                                #24
                                                I'm not sure this counts as a "natural" level, but it was really nice seeing Barry Town back in the Welsh Premier League this past season. They used to boss the League of Wales and the comeback story is a great one.

                                                This may seem harsh, but Barnet dropping back into non league (again) seems about right.

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                                                  #25
                                                  Lowest level of the Football League. Since the start of the twentieth century that's where you've usually found us (26 seasons above, 8 below)

                                                  And, what ursus said about other teams in the region rings true. Our highest ever position happened when City were heading down to the 3rd tier for the first and only time, and our worst seven seasons are the seven since they ended their trophy drought in 2011, without wishing to ignore the more direct factors.

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