Results 1 to 24 of 24
  1. #1
    Ray de Galles's Avatar
    I have every comfort and every sport
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    In Suburbia
    Posts
    29,580
    Teams
    Wales & Wimbledon
    Biscuit
    Dark Chocolate Digestive
    Actor
    Steve Spiers

    We Need To Talk About ‘Avengers - Infinity War’ : Spoilery

    Are we not discussing this for fear of spoilers, has nobody seen it yet or is it just nobody is interested?

    I thought it was astounding, worthy of it’s epic scale and running time. It flirts with something approaching nihilism to a level that I found very surprising in a billion dollar popcorn blockbuster franchise film.

    When the screen faded at the end I was literally open-mouthed at the audacity of the finale, that they didn’t actually present us with a deus ex machina that brought the disintegrated and killed characters back to life. I know that’s going to come in a future movie (well, perhaps not for those we saw actually killed) but to leave this film where we did is a very brave move.

    Brilliant stuff, will be going back again next week to dive deeper in to it.

  2. #2
    Ray de Galles's Avatar
    I have every comfort and every sport
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    In Suburbia
    Posts
    29,580
    Teams
    Wales & Wimbledon
    Biscuit
    Dark Chocolate Digestive
    Actor
    Steve Spiers
    Just realised what the feeling I had when it ended reminded me of - how I felt after dead stop in the final scene of ‘The Sopranos’.
    Last edited by Ray de Galles; 07-05-2018 at 01:22.

  3. #3
    Felicity, I guess so's Avatar
    not local
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Tyne 'n' Wear (emphasis on the 'n')
    Posts
    5,173
    Teams
    Dundee Utd, Gladbach, Atleti, Napoli
    Well maybe you’ve convinced me to see it, otherwise I was meh

  4. #4
    Lang Spoon's Avatar
    They rode over peasants like you
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Ireland
    Posts
    9,190
    Teams
    Raith Rovers/Liverpool
    Biscuit
    Abernethies
    Sister’s non comic book liking review: alright, a bit long, too many plot strands, better than the last two. Always nice to see Embra get smashed up as well I suppose. I might stream it.

  5. #5
    Ray de Galles's Avatar
    I have every comfort and every sport
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    In Suburbia
    Posts
    29,580
    Teams
    Wales & Wimbledon
    Biscuit
    Dark Chocolate Digestive
    Actor
    Steve Spiers
    I’m not a particular comic book fan (I think ‘Watchmen’ is the last one I bought) but do like Marvel/superhero movies in general though the quality of them has always been very variable.

    This transcends the genre though, with the caveat that you’ll need at least a working knowledge of the MCU (and ideally have seen all the movies, especially the recent ones) to appreciate it fully.

  6. #6
    Lang Spoon's Avatar
    They rode over peasants like you
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Ireland
    Posts
    9,190
    Teams
    Raith Rovers/Liverpool
    Biscuit
    Abernethies
    Sister liked it better than Black Panther anyways, and that’s the one non superhero fans are supposed to find best/most accessible of the recent post Guardians 1 vintage.

  7. #7
    Patrick Thistle's Avatar
    We are Groot
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Cymru
    Posts
    10,488
    Teams
    Salop, Cymru, Devils, Padres
    Biscuit
    Choc and Hazelnut Boasters
    Actor
    Mr Tumble apparently
    I watched it tonight. I thought it was depressing and bitty.

    I really like a lot of the MCU movies but the Avengers ones are my least favourite. Too many characters; not enough plot.

    Also, it's a Thanos film but they shouldn't have made Thanos a hero. And his thugs were just twunts.

  8. #8
    Ray de Galles's Avatar
    I have every comfort and every sport
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    In Suburbia
    Posts
    29,580
    Teams
    Wales & Wimbledon
    Biscuit
    Dark Chocolate Digestive
    Actor
    Steve Spiers
    SPOILERS


    Enjoying the film or not is obviously a matter of personal taste but the contention that there is “not enough plot” and “Thanos is a hero” seems absolutely insane.

    Making a villain something other than a one-dimensional caricature does not mean they are a hero, especially when they are shown doing everything from torturing and sacrificing their own children to wiping out half of all life in the universe.

    I could understand, if not agree with, the idea that the plot is too dense but not the opposite. Even critics who I have heard be relatively lukewarm about the film have praised its ability to weave all the disparate characters, locations and plot threads in to a coherent narrative that fills its 160 minute running time.
    Last edited by Ray de Galles; 16-05-2018 at 00:31.

  9. #9
    Patrick Thistle's Avatar
    We are Groot
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Cymru
    Posts
    10,488
    Teams
    Salop, Cymru, Devils, Padres
    Biscuit
    Choc and Hazelnut Boasters
    Actor
    Mr Tumble apparently
    Well, okay. That was a general criticism of the Avengers films plots.

    Maybe I should have said 'made Thanos the star' instead of 'hero'. That whole story with Gamora. We could all see what was coming on the cliff. Do we really need to see Thanos emote?

    The film had weaknesses. Hulk gets his ass kicked by Thanos which somehow makes Bruce Banner the expert on Thanos, his army and his motives. How does he know all that?

    Suddenly we are supposed to care about Vision and Scarlet Witch, even though they've been bit players in one film so far.

    We get Star Trek TNG style "tell, don't show" when we get exposition that Thanos laid waste to Xandar.

    A bugbear for me is that they completely ruin other movies to get here. Thor Ragnarok's ending is ruined if all the Asgardians die anyway.

    And I didn't think the plot was too dense. There were just more Macguffins for the bad guy to hunt down (or have handed over to him to stop him torturing or killing people - half of them are just given to him!) The reason it might feel dense is because there was no time to really develop any characters further. Except for Thanos, and maybe Vision and Scarlet Witch. (Although we are quickly thrust into having to care about their relationship.) Yes, the story switched scenes quickly and maybe for some people that = 'a dense plot'. But then some people can't follow multiple threads.

  10. #10
    Patrick Thistle's Avatar
    We are Groot
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Cymru
    Posts
    10,488
    Teams
    Salop, Cymru, Devils, Padres
    Biscuit
    Choc and Hazelnut Boasters
    Actor
    Mr Tumble apparently
    Also, Gamora begs Star Lord to kill her and he tries to. He even pulls the trigger. Then she goes all womanly weak when Thanos is torturing Nebula even though Nebula tells her not to reveal the location of the soul stone. That's something that really fucked me off. I bloody love Gamora as she's been portrayed so far. This script betrayed her.

  11. #11
    Ray de Galles's Avatar
    I have every comfort and every sport
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    In Suburbia
    Posts
    29,580
    Teams
    Wales & Wimbledon
    Biscuit
    Dark Chocolate Digestive
    Actor
    Steve Spiers
    Well those are more coherently argued criticisms, some of which are valid (though I think even those are minor quibbles against the overall quality of the film). To be clear, I don’t think the plot was too dense - I said that would be a more understandable criticism than there being “not enough plot” but one I would disagree with.

    I agree with the comments on Banner coming over all Basil Exposition and the relationship between Vision and Scarlet Witch but they’re plot shortcuts in 2hr 40m movie - I’m not overly bothered about them. Xander’s offscreen destruction is the same (the Russos have commented on why it was handled that way, I’m sure you’ve seen it).

    I don’t see how Gamora’s willingness to sacrifice herself but not allow her sister to be tortured to death is “womanly weak” at all. It’s a pretty standard hero trope and Doctor Strange does similar, giving up the Time Stone to save Iron Man later in the film (given he had looked in to all the alternate futures he would have known that saving Stark would lead to his own demise - though I think that action is significant for the next film) so it’s hardly a gender issue.

    The start of the film is certainly an abrupt grinding of the gears from the end of ‘Ragnarok’ but I think that’s to be applauded as a brave statement of where this movie is going to take the story and it doesn’t spoil the Thor movie for me (though I am still concerned for Valkyrie and Korg) in the same way Han dying in The Force Awakens doesn’t spoil Star Wars.

  12. #12
    Patrick Thistle's Avatar
    We are Groot
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Cymru
    Posts
    10,488
    Teams
    Salop, Cymru, Devils, Padres
    Biscuit
    Choc and Hazelnut Boasters
    Actor
    Mr Tumble apparently
    I think it annoyed me that Gamora would ask someone else to do something she then couldn't do. Loki gave the Tessaract up too easily but we know he had a soft side. Dr Strange needed to save Tony. But the same thing happened 3 times in the same movie. Even Vision didn't run away to save Captain America's life and then got caught.

    For all Thanos' big badness he only took 2 stones by absolute force. And one of those we didn't even see on screen.

  13. #13
    Patrick Thistle's Avatar
    We are Groot
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Cymru
    Posts
    10,488
    Teams
    Salop, Cymru, Devils, Padres
    Biscuit
    Choc and Hazelnut Boasters
    Actor
    Mr Tumble apparently
    Going back to the point of nihilism in your OP, I don't see Thanos as espousing nihilism. He has an absolutist view that's devoid of compassion. He thinks the solution to over-population is to kill half the population, at random, in total "fairness". It's a cold logic taken to its extreme. In one sense it reminded me of a Randian hyper-capitalist view - people are ultimately expendable dross. In another sense it reminded me of tyranny and political dogma taken to logical conclusions. Think Mao's famines, the Khmer year zero, Stalin's gulags, the final solution. It's the use of genocide to force through radical social change.

    That is a big topic to address and what worries me is that humanising the Titan may imply some sympathy for that position. A bit like how The Dark Knight Returns implied that society couldn't function without the proles submitting to the rule of the one per cent.

    Marvel films do deal with big themes. Given its origin in the only seriously religious nation in the West, the deicide depicted in Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 2 was a genuinely surprising statement.

  14. #14
    Ray de Galles's Avatar
    I have every comfort and every sport
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    In Suburbia
    Posts
    29,580
    Teams
    Wales & Wimbledon
    Biscuit
    Dark Chocolate Digestive
    Actor
    Steve Spiers
    The “deicide” being the killing of Ego? I wouldn’t say many people, especially practicing Christians, would see him as a religious god figure, even if he is a Celestial.

    With regards to nihilism, I said the film “flirted with something approaching nihilism” rather than any character directly espousing the philosophy. That said, using the basic wiki definitions (I know, I know) Thanos’s actions would seem to fit existential nihilism (“the belief that life has no intrinsic meaning or value. With respect to the universe, existential nihilism posits that a single human or even the entire human species is insignificant”) and moral nihilism (“morality does not exist as something inherent to objective reality; therefore no action is necessarily preferable to any other. For example, a moral nihilist would say that killing someone, for whatever reason, is not inherently right or wrong”).
    Last edited by Ray de Galles; 17-05-2018 at 09:25.

  15. #15
    Well, Cap kicked ass as ever, so I was happy.

  16. #16
    Patrick Thistle's Avatar
    We are Groot
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Cymru
    Posts
    10,488
    Teams
    Salop, Cymru, Devils, Padres
    Biscuit
    Choc and Hazelnut Boasters
    Actor
    Mr Tumble apparently
    But Thanos thought he was pursuing the right course of action. It wasn't a morally nihilistic view. He was saving the universe by eliminating half of it. He is an archetypal false messiah on a self appointed mission. He's willing to "sacrifice" (that word gets used quite a bit and implies value) half of all living beings in the name of the greater good. He wants to preserve life... by killing lots of people who are alive.

    I agree most Christians wouldn't see Star-Lord killing Ego as deicide. But Ego was referred to as a god, and when Star-Lord finds out Ego killed Meredith Quill, his first reaction was to pull out his guns and start blazing away. I thought that idea of rejecting, resisting and vanquishing a god (with a small g) is quite bold in such a religious nation.

  17. #17

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    That London
    Posts
    3,647
    Teams
    Partick Thistle, Scotland
    Biscuit
    Caramel wafer
    Actor
    Henry Rollins (apparently)
    Just seen it with mrs b, we both absolutely hated it. That mass kill-off at the end felt like a soap opera offing off half the cast with a bullshit plane crash, or worse those shite new Star Wars films killing off old favourites in a desperate attemp to make the new characters more prominent by default.

  18. #18
    Ray de Galles's Avatar
    I have every comfort and every sport
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    In Suburbia
    Posts
    29,580
    Teams
    Wales & Wimbledon
    Biscuit
    Dark Chocolate Digestive
    Actor
    Steve Spiers
    Avengers Endgame/4/Infinity War Part II trailer is out.

    I really think 'Infinity War' has been my film of the year.

  19. #19
    hobbes's Avatar
    A bastion of rightness in a wrong old world.
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Hell (You may know it as Bromley.)
    Posts
    15,899
    Teams
    Liverpool
    Biscuit
    Jaffa Cake
    I saw it in September. I wrote at the time on Facebook
    "Difficult to believe, but I just watched Avengers Infinity War and it's even more of a sloppy, unfocused mess than Age of Ultron.
    It truly is the Phantom Menace of the Marvel universe."
    I don't hold out much hope for Endgame.
    Still, Thor films are great as are Guardians. If they keep making those I'll be happy.

    Still at least it's not a DC universe film. I watched Justice League. <Shudder>
    Last edited by hobbes; 07-12-2018 at 19:01.

  20. #20
    Lang Spoon's Avatar
    They rode over peasants like you
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Ireland
    Posts
    9,190
    Teams
    Raith Rovers/Liverpool
    Biscuit
    Abernethies
    I remember the Justice League International comics in the late 80s being whip smart and funny. Now I was like 12 or 13, but someone making a film in that style would surely be a lot more palatable than Zack Snyder bollocks. Aquaman looks piss awful.

  21. #21
    Lang Spoon's Avatar
    They rode over peasants like you
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Ireland
    Posts
    9,190
    Teams
    Raith Rovers/Liverpool
    Biscuit
    Abernethies
    An Animal Man Netflix series based on the Grant Morrison 80s reboot could be a goer. Anything but po faced Nolan Stupid High Seriousness or Snyder bollocks please DC.

  22. #22
    Justice League was worth it just for Superman beating the living crap out of the others.

  23. #23
    Patrick Thistle's Avatar
    We are Groot
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Cymru
    Posts
    10,488
    Teams
    Salop, Cymru, Devils, Padres
    Biscuit
    Choc and Hazelnut Boasters
    Actor
    Mr Tumble apparently
    Justice League was worth it for Wonder Woman.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Ray de Galles View Post
    Avengers Endgame/4/Infinity War Part II trailer is out.

    I really think 'Infinity War' has been my film of the year.
    I'm assuming Stark gets rescued by Captain Marvel.

    I still want a Booster Gold series.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •