Canals are more likely to be filled with light industrial dumping (eg tyres) than trolleys now.
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Let's not forget, for however non-left wing Ed Milliband was, the Tories successful election strategy against him (even to the point of surprising themselves by how effective it was) was to paint him as significantly further left than anything else recent in Britain at that point. Remember the batshit articles in the Mail about his Dad, etc. It was a deliberate campaign that was completely based on the 'Britain is not going to vote for a socialist' trope.
Why it succeeded is probably a combination of that galvanising those it would, and a lack of enthusiasm by those actually on the left for a candidate who they didn't believe would deliver or them. But for all the introspection about why that Labour campaign failed to connect, few on the left were asking why their opponents clearly did. If you only address half the issue, you only get half the answer...
As for Corbyn, I hope he wins of course. But I believe his followers here are over-extrapolating if they think 2015 is proof that he can. That was an extremely skewed election as he was up against probably the most hopeless and shambolic political campaign and campaigner that any of us will ever witness. Given that 2015 absolutely solidified Corbyn's previously shaky position as leader and means he is certain to fight the next election, the Labour left have an awful lot to thank Theresa May for. Again there appears to be an introspection going on that it was only what Labour said and did that impacted on the Labour vote.Last edited by Janik; 27-04-2018, 19:20.
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Yeah that’s my worry. Unless we crash out of Brexit talks, it will take a number of years of gradual decline before the shitpile of Brexit becomes apparent. And by then the Tories might well have another fixed term parliament to fuck us all over. Fuck you Nick Clegg, I hope the rest of his life is massively unpleasant and filled with woe. Stupid cunt.
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Originally posted by Reginald ChristCorbyn's Labour didn't win an election, no. But he and they conclusively proved that it's within their reach.
With the self-immolation of the Lib Dems, we are back in a bi-partisan situation where a vote for a party can be a dismissal of A rather than an endorsement of B.
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Originally posted by wingco View PostI don’t ultimately think Jeremy Corbyn has the calibre to lead Labour in the direction it needs to go. He’s an old man, not a great man, prone to binary simplicities. It would take an extraordinary talent, a youthful Harry (or Harriet) Perkins to pull off what’s required, something that only really happened once last century and then after a World War. However, I’ve no regrets whatsoever for voting for him. Thanks to Blair/Brown spending years ensuring that his wing of the party was barely represented, the only option on the ballot paper for those who wanted Labour to be truer to itself was Corbyn. He was the only doorway available.
That's worst thing about this never-ending bad-faith campaigning against Corbyn. It grinds down all hope to make sure that nothing better can ever happen.
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The significance of Corbyn's electoral "success" in 2017 is vastly overstated. May ran possibly the worst election campaign in British post-war history, and still ended up ahead of him. A more electable Labour party would have got a big majority against such hopelessly divided and incompetently led Tories.
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Originally posted by Evariste Euler Gauss View PostThe significance of Corbyn's electoral "success" in 2017 is vastly overstated. May ran possibly the worst election campaign in British post-war history, and still ended up ahead of him. A more electable Labour party would have got a big majority against such hopelessly divided and incompetently led Tories.
Never forget that this is Stephen Kinnock and his supporters reaction to the most remarkable electoral turnaround in a couple of generations. He was supposed to be on their side.
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Everyone can interpret 2017s results however they want. It's a dangerous game, reading too much one way or another.
It's evidence of the great left-wing turnaround in British politics and Corbyn just needs one more election, given the massive strides made
and also
It's evidence that even against the most inept government running the worst campaign in history, a left wing party can't win in Britain
Naturally, as a centrist, I have a position sort of in the middle:
Which is that it shows that Britain could vote for a left wing party, if only it was led by someone a little more adept and perhaps a little more modern, and who was more willing to actually lead. That the problem with "Corbynism" is, in fact, Corbyn. (I suppose Wingco basically said the same thing in the last paragraph of his opening post).
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I saw some footage of Labour in Halifax, and they were really hammering the dementia tax, Theresa May coming for your house and all that. Looking at Halifax house prices, I'm not sure that was entirely honest. I've no sympathy for the Tories, least of all on this issue, after Cameron and Lansley who sat in all party talks before 2010 until such a time as they could leave them shouting "Labour's Death Tax".
But it was a bit disheartening. There are terrifying costs coming down the track, and I'm fairly relaxed about heirs paying a chunk out of bloated house prices. My guess is that this policy really hurt May. People voting Labour for socialism, that isn't.Last edited by Tubby Isaacs; 27-04-2018, 21:18.
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The 2017 result suggested a lot of things. It certainly suggested that Corbynism has a broader appeal than nearly anyone (apparently excluding Karie Murphy) thought possible. But it also suggests that even with the worst Tory campaign imaginable, fourteen and a half million voters were prepared to back them in order to ensure Corbyn did not become Prime Minister. Like the people who backed Owen Smith in the leadership election, it's not unreasonable to believe that these people will never vote for Corbyn. Wingco says his appeal is incontrovertible - sadly for anyone who wants the Tories out anytime soon, it remains unproven.
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Originally posted by Lang Spoon View PostThe mugs on immigration and the Edstone should be the epitaph of New Labour. I feel really sorry for Miliband Minimus in a way, hamstrung by association with the Brown regime, and bullshit centrism. I get the feeling he would have run further left if he could have, and without spad shepherding might have had more of a chance. Or maybe he was too early as a candidate, and his gaucheness would have doomed him anyways. I still can’t see Corbyn winning.
I think he can probably own his own faults.Last edited by Lucy Waterman; 27-04-2018, 21:30.
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Originally posted by Snake Plissken View PostThat more electable Labour Party would have required the PLP to stop undermining their Leader from even before the day he took office.
However, one definitive recent trend in politics is for anti-establishment people and movements winning. And those have come from both the left AND the right. What has worked is a galvanising figure promising to tear down the elites, exactly how they intend on tearing it down is less relevant than they say they will. As such, I wonder how much attacks from people associated with Blair/Brown era ministers are harmful. That group is associated with having power for a long time and is also now extremely unpopular. Things that distance Corbyn from them in the public mind are probably not greatly harmful. My enemies enemy logic.
Even in its own terms, those attacks were tactically stupid. If Corbyn had indeed presided over the wipe-out those people expected, they had provided an excuse for the Labour left that it wasn't the policies of the leader that had caused to it. Having seen the 2015 (got my years straight now) leadership election to against them, they should have shut the fuck up out of self-interest. 2017 at least has basically achieved that. These voices are now completely marginal.Last edited by Janik; 27-04-2018, 21:51.
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no they're not. Just look at the coverage of Ruth Smeeth's long march for freedom with Mp' bodyguards. They still have the media at their beck and call and they are still treated as the legitimate Opposition.Last edited by Nefertiti2; 27-04-2018, 21:56.
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Originally posted by Janik View PostHowever, one definitive recent trend in politics is for anti-establishment people and movements winning. And those have come from both the left AND the right. What has worked is a galvanising figure promising to tear down the elites, exactly how they intend on tearing it down is less relevant than they say they will. As such, I wonder how much attacks from people associated with Blair/Brown era ministers are harmful. That group is associated with having power for a long time and is also now extremely unpopular. Things that distance Corbyn from them in the public mind are probably not greatly harmful. My enemies enemy logic.
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Originally posted by Janik View PostI genuinely don't know what that is referring to [edit - Nef's last post]. Whatever it is is marginal to me, at least...https://twitter.com/jcollieruk/status/989141649728163840
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I'd agree that Jess Phillips gets a lot more press than an average backbencher, but that's because she's a good communicator (full disclosure, I've worked with her a couple of times, I know her socially, calling her a mate would be overstating it).
(Re: the Smeeth thing)Last edited by Lucy Waterman; 27-04-2018, 22:55.
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