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    #26
    Canals are more likely to be filled with light industrial dumping (eg tyres) than trolleys now.

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      #27
      Let's not forget, for however non-left wing Ed Milliband was, the Tories successful election strategy against him (even to the point of surprising themselves by how effective it was) was to paint him as significantly further left than anything else recent in Britain at that point. Remember the batshit articles in the Mail about his Dad, etc. It was a deliberate campaign that was completely based on the 'Britain is not going to vote for a socialist' trope.

      Why it succeeded is probably a combination of that galvanising those it would, and a lack of enthusiasm by those actually on the left for a candidate who they didn't believe would deliver or them. But for all the introspection about why that Labour campaign failed to connect, few on the left were asking why their opponents clearly did. If you only address half the issue, you only get half the answer...

      As for Corbyn, I hope he wins of course. But I believe his followers here are over-extrapolating if they think 2015 is proof that he can. That was an extremely skewed election as he was up against probably the most hopeless and shambolic political campaign and campaigner that any of us will ever witness. Given that 2015 absolutely solidified Corbyn's previously shaky position as leader and means he is certain to fight the next election, the Labour left have an awful lot to thank Theresa May for. Again there appears to be an introspection going on that it was only what Labour said and did that impacted on the Labour vote.
      Last edited by Janik; 27-04-2018, 19:20.

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        #28
        Yeah that’s my worry. Unless we crash out of Brexit talks, it will take a number of years of gradual decline before the shitpile of Brexit becomes apparent. And by then the Tories might well have another fixed term parliament to fuck us all over. Fuck you Nick Clegg, I hope the rest of his life is massively unpleasant and filled with woe. Stupid cunt.

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          #29
          There's a stretch of the River Medlock that's fucking full of Mobikes, a smart bike sharing thing. Takes some doing to take a scheme designed to help the environment and use it as a tool to spoil it instead, but that's Manchester thinking for you.

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            #30
            My only negative impression I got of Manchester during my brief visit there is that it has a major trash problem.

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              #31
              Erm, getting my dates confused. For 2015 read 2017. As you were.

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                #32
                Originally posted by Reginald Christ
                Corbyn's Labour didn't win an election, no. But he and they conclusively proved that it's within their reach.
                Sorry, but no, he didn't. You need more than one data point to prove anything, let alone conclusively prove. Your analysis is fundamentally flawed by exactly what I say above - you are only considering one half of the issue, who and what Labour were.

                With the self-immolation of the Lib Dems, we are back in a bi-partisan situation where a vote for a party can be a dismissal of A rather than an endorsement of B.

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                  #33
                  Originally posted by wingco View Post
                  I don’t ultimately think Jeremy Corbyn has the calibre to lead Labour in the direction it needs to go. He’s an old man, not a great man, prone to binary simplicities. It would take an extraordinary talent, a youthful Harry (or Harriet) Perkins to pull off what’s required, something that only really happened once last century and then after a World War. However, I’ve no regrets whatsoever for voting for him. Thanks to Blair/Brown spending years ensuring that his wing of the party was barely represented, the only option on the ballot paper for those who wanted Labour to be truer to itself was Corbyn. He was the only doorway available.
                  That's pretty much the nub of it. The old guard have been pushing the idea of "Corbynistas" as some kind of personality cult that will blow over when he inevitably lets everyone down. That's why I'm not keen on Coca-Cola-style Corbyn T-shirts and mass chants at Glastonbury. It's not about him, it's about having something other than sensible, manicured, managerial PPE spods triangulating and holding the centre ground while the right ratchets ever rightward. With any luck, this will lead to more, better people from the left coming through.

                  That's worst thing about this never-ending bad-faith campaigning against Corbyn. It grinds down all hope to make sure that nothing better can ever happen.

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                    #34
                    The significance of Corbyn's electoral "success" in 2017 is vastly overstated. May ran possibly the worst election campaign in British post-war history, and still ended up ahead of him. A more electable Labour party would have got a big majority against such hopelessly divided and incompetently led Tories.

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                      #35
                      Originally posted by Evariste Euler Gauss View Post
                      The significance of Corbyn's electoral "success" in 2017 is vastly overstated. May ran possibly the worst election campaign in British post-war history, and still ended up ahead of him. A more electable Labour party would have got a big majority against such hopelessly divided and incompetently led Tories.
                      That more electable Labour Party would have required the PLP to stop undermining their Leader from even before the day he took office. There were Labour MPs (Woodcock and Kinnock, I think) who were still at it while the campaign was going on.

                      Never forget that this is Stephen Kinnock and his supporters reaction to the most remarkable electoral turnaround in a couple of generations. He was supposed to be on their side.

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                        #36
                        I feel hated.

                        MORE WINE!

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                          #37
                          Everyone can interpret 2017s results however they want. It's a dangerous game, reading too much one way or another.

                          It's evidence of the great left-wing turnaround in British politics and Corbyn just needs one more election, given the massive strides made
                          and also
                          It's evidence that even against the most inept government running the worst campaign in history, a left wing party can't win in Britain

                          Naturally, as a centrist, I have a position sort of in the middle:

                          Which is that it shows that Britain could vote for a left wing party, if only it was led by someone a little more adept and perhaps a little more modern, and who was more willing to actually lead. That the problem with "Corbynism" is, in fact, Corbyn. (I suppose Wingco basically said the same thing in the last paragraph of his opening post).

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                            #38
                            I saw some footage of Labour in Halifax, and they were really hammering the dementia tax, Theresa May coming for your house and all that. Looking at Halifax house prices, I'm not sure that was entirely honest. I've no sympathy for the Tories, least of all on this issue, after Cameron and Lansley who sat in all party talks before 2010 until such a time as they could leave them shouting "Labour's Death Tax".

                            But it was a bit disheartening. There are terrifying costs coming down the track, and I'm fairly relaxed about heirs paying a chunk out of bloated house prices. My guess is that this policy really hurt May. People voting Labour for socialism, that isn't.
                            Last edited by Tubby Isaacs; 27-04-2018, 21:18.

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                              #39
                              The 2017 result suggested a lot of things. It certainly suggested that Corbynism has a broader appeal than nearly anyone (apparently excluding Karie Murphy) thought possible. But it also suggests that even with the worst Tory campaign imaginable, fourteen and a half million voters were prepared to back them in order to ensure Corbyn did not become Prime Minister. Like the people who backed Owen Smith in the leadership election, it's not unreasonable to believe that these people will never vote for Corbyn. Wingco says his appeal is incontrovertible - sadly for anyone who wants the Tories out anytime soon, it remains unproven.

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                                #40
                                Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
                                The mugs on immigration and the Edstone should be the epitaph of New Labour. I feel really sorry for Miliband Minimus in a way, hamstrung by association with the Brown regime, and bullshit centrism. I get the feeling he would have run further left if he could have, and without spad shepherding might have had more of a chance. Or maybe he was too early as a candidate, and his gaucheness would have doomed him anyways. I still can’t see Corbyn winning.
                                Ed Miliband basically invented the modern conception of what being a spad is in the mid 90s, so I can't really believe he became a prisoner of that system.

                                I think he can probably own his own faults.
                                Last edited by Lucy Waterman; 27-04-2018, 21:30.

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                                  #41
                                  Originally posted by Snake Plissken View Post
                                  That more electable Labour Party would have required the PLP to stop undermining their Leader from even before the day he took office.
                                  Given that 'more electable' here is an avatar for more to the PLP's tastes, things probably would have been less undermining from them. And more from activists and certain Union leaders dismissing that putative leader as a Tory-lite cipher.

                                  However, one definitive recent trend in politics is for anti-establishment people and movements winning. And those have come from both the left AND the right. What has worked is a galvanising figure promising to tear down the elites, exactly how they intend on tearing it down is less relevant than they say they will. As such, I wonder how much attacks from people associated with Blair/Brown era ministers are harmful. That group is associated with having power for a long time and is also now extremely unpopular. Things that distance Corbyn from them in the public mind are probably not greatly harmful. My enemies enemy logic.

                                  Even in its own terms, those attacks were tactically stupid. If Corbyn had indeed presided over the wipe-out those people expected, they had provided an excuse for the Labour left that it wasn't the policies of the leader that had caused to it. Having seen the 2015 (got my years straight now) leadership election to against them, they should have shut the fuck up out of self-interest. 2017 at least has basically achieved that. These voices are now completely marginal.
                                  Last edited by Janik; 27-04-2018, 21:51.

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                                    #42
                                    no they're not. Just look at the coverage of Ruth Smeeth's long march for freedom with Mp' bodyguards. They still have the media at their beck and call and they are still treated as the legitimate Opposition.
                                    Last edited by Nefertiti2; 27-04-2018, 21:56.

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                                      #43
                                      I think if the Lib Dems hadn't gone into the Coalition, we could have seen some defections like in 1983. But of course they did, and I think at least some people who elected Corbyn realized that there was much more political space this time. A good smart call.

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                                        #44
                                        I genuinely don't know what that is referring to [edit - Nef's last post]. Whatever it is is marginal to me, at least...

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                                          #45
                                          He's saying the voices aren't marginal- see today's media coverage of Smeeth's supporters.

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                                            #46
                                            Originally posted by Janik View Post
                                            However, one definitive recent trend in politics is for anti-establishment people and movements winning. And those have come from both the left AND the right. What has worked is a galvanising figure promising to tear down the elites, exactly how they intend on tearing it down is less relevant than they say they will. As such, I wonder how much attacks from people associated with Blair/Brown era ministers are harmful. That group is associated with having power for a long time and is also now extremely unpopular. Things that distance Corbyn from them in the public mind are probably not greatly harmful. My enemies enemy logic.
                                            That's a phenomenally good point. Counter-intuitive, but yes - that's surely the case.

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                                              #47
                                              Originally posted by Janik View Post
                                              I genuinely don't know what that is referring to [edit - Nef's last post]. Whatever it is is marginal to me, at least...
                                              https://twitter.com/jcollieruk/status/989141649728163840

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                                                #48
                                                I'm not sure I follow Nef here, and I don't think I'm being deliberately obtuse. The people marching with Smeeth are being treated as the opposition to Theresa May?

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                                                  #49
                                                  Corbyn himself grasped that a while ago. His team were making comparisons to Trump at the start of 2017. I thought it was ridiculous, and Corbyn made a muck of the policy he was floating about capping pay.

                                                  But he was on to something, for sure.

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                                                    #50
                                                    I'd agree that Jess Phillips gets a lot more press than an average backbencher, but that's because she's a good communicator (full disclosure, I've worked with her a couple of times, I know her socially, calling her a mate would be overstating it).

                                                    (Re: the Smeeth thing)
                                                    Last edited by Lucy Waterman; 27-04-2018, 22:55.

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