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    #26
    Is there a parallel with gridiron football in the US?

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      #27
      1 Yes I read that Joe.ie link. Privileged young men behave oafishly. Of course the slang used and the technology have changed since your day or mine, but is it really anything new under the Sun?

      Come on, that stuff is fucking mental. also they are the product of a situation that applies to a tiny number of people.

      2 What point are you making about real or notional Leinster players acting similarly? They wouldn't have been taken to Court, or they would?

      I don't think this case would have reached the courts in the republic, and I don't think the effect would be limited to Rugby. I'm amazed they went ahead with it (Not because it didn't merit it)

      3 This whole thing affects the IRFU as its high profile is down to two guys who are effectively their employees. They'll take a short-term bad PR hit as I described

      This doesn't affect the IRFU yet. No Irish institution is ever really going to get blamed for something that happens in the North, even fucking sinn Fein apparently. But also no-one knows who stuart olding is, and Paddy jackson on a good day is still at least three injuries away from playing for ireland. There problems arise if they try and pick these players again, and it would be easier to just forget about it.

      4 The Courtroom tourism thing is a bit crass . There's a way round that- exclude the public from rape trials

      Its not tourism though. Its Northern Irish Rugby ultra culture.

      5 On the SC show weeks ago- early in the 6 Nations- the lads dissed Joe Schmidt and Rory Best (Ireland coach and captain) for taking a time out to talk about this (or turn up in Court, as Best did). The impression I got was clearly 'Why are they involved in this sideshow, we've a game to win'

      That's almost certainly not what they were getting at.

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        #28
        Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
        Is there a parallel with gridiron football in the US?
        Perhaps in terms of jock culture, but rugby is still predominantly a middle-class milieu, hothoused in Leinster Senior Cup schools such as Blackrock, Belvedere, Clongowes and Terenure, Munster equivalents including Roscrea, Pres Cork and Christian Brothers Cork and the most famous Ulster school being Methodist College.

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          #29
          More like US university lacrosse in that way.

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            #30
            The young lad Rossiter from Drogheda United has profusely apologised and closed his Twitter account,more importantly he's agreed to go on a respect course and said he'll donate his football earnings to north east rape crisis centres (a bit of context, he's a part time 19 year old footballer in Ireland's second division so is probably only on about €100 a week)

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              #31
              More like US university lacrosse in that way.

              yes and no. About a quarter to a third of the irish population watch the irish team when they play an international. An international rugby player is going to be pretty famous, more like GridIron than lacrosse. Pretty much every person under 40 in belfast would know who Paddy Jackson was, and a large proportion of the population that are older than that. I'm not sure that that would apply to lacrosse players. The comparison with the culture, and with the culture of impunity enjoyed by highschool football players is a strong one, but it doesn't have the cross class appeal of grid iron. (I would like to know if a majority of people watching these international rugby games have ever actually touched a rugby ball)

              Laois won their match btw, despite throwing their star player temporarily under the bus.

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                #32
                Yes, I was thinking about high school and university.

                Given the size of many US “college towns”, there is a significant parallel with the status of players of whatever the “alpha” sport (most often, but not always gridiron, actually lacrosse at Johns Hopkins), though the class background of basketball and gridiron players would be dramatically different from those of Irish rugby players. Your supposition of what would have happened in Leinster is strongly supported by the horrific examples of places like Florida State and Baylor.

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                  #33
                  Ireland have pretty much only been good since I got here, so I had the impression of very fucker in Dublin loving rugby. By all accounts though this is very much bandwagon jumping and Tiger era self-conscious middle classing, supposedly they’d get fuck all of a following in the many years they were worse than Scotland.

                  Is interesting how many women will talk about the 6 nations in a way not many would talk about soccer.

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                    #34
                    See also Munster and Leinster - I can remember back in the Nineties, when the focus was on the AIL, so Lansdowne v Shannon was the typical "big game" outside the Six Nations, and the interprovincials attracted 500 people, usually just before Christmas.

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                      #35
                      What’s the AIL?

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                        #36
                        All-Ireland League - very much reduced in status since the Celtic League started.

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                          #37
                          It amazes me that Glasgow can get between 6 and 9000 every game, and fucking Edinburgh can barely scrape over 3000. For eggball. In a city where the Great and Good might just give passing sniffy notice of the Hearts results while the skip to the Scotsman rugger pages. I don’t understand the Old Country at all anymore.

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                            #38
                            Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
                            It amazes me that Glasgow can get between 6 and 9000 every game, and fucking Edinburgh can barely scrape over 3000. For eggball. In a city where the Great and Good might just give passing sniffy notice of the Hearts results while the skip to the Scotsman rugger pages. I don’t understand the Old Country at all anymore.
                            Especially odd that the Borders haven't been re-established, given its status as the Scottish rugby heartland.

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                              #39
                              Youse have done really well by having your pro teams mirror the Provinces. Scotland couldn’t keep the Borders team going, despite it being the only place in Scotland where Rugby is the sport of all classes. Except nerds who’ll soon fuck off from hands on forelock Toryland anyway. But nowhere near enough of a size to sustain a pro team. At least with Connaught there’s a bigger catchment.

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                                #40
                                Hah! Yeah, wot you said.

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                                  #41
                                  Given the size of many US “college towns”, there is a significant parallel with the status of players of whatever the “alpha” sport (most often, but not always gridiron, actually lacrosse at Johns Hopkins), though the class background of basketball and gridiron players would be dramatically different from those of Irish rugby players. Your supposition of what would have happened in Leinster is strongly supported by the horrific examples of places like Florida State and Baylor.

                                  yeah, the sport or the place doesn't really matter very much. it's the Alpha-ness of the whole thing. It's a question of just how fucking toxic the local culture is, and that seems to be if not quite independent of class, it's a poor predictor.

                                  Ireland have pretty much only been good since I got here, so I had the impression of very fucker in Dublin loving rugby. By all accounts though this is very much bandwagon jumping and Tiger era self-conscious middle classing, by all accounts they’d get fuck all of a following in the many years they were worse than Scotland.

                                  rugby has only been professional since 1995. It would have been difficult to follow it before that, and there would only have been four or five games a year for you to watch. The big driver for rugby in Ireland is that it's an event. It's something that happens in Ireland on a regular basis. Ireland get to play england every year, and that's as big a part of it, as beating england in 9 out of 10 years.

                                  The women thing is interesting. A big part of it is the class thing, as posh birds have always been going along to shitty amateur matches to find a suitable mate since before independence. but the other aspect of it is that since it only became popular recently, it's marketed itself heavily at women from the beginning. While Rugby has been on an upward trajectory anyway, the wealth of its core fanbase means that it's been a huge target for advertisers from the very beginning. until quite recently three of the four drive time radio shows in dublin were presented by Rugby pundits and rugby presenters.

                                  Another thing to consider is that if you are into rugby, everyone you know and meet is going to be on the same side. So its a very different social setting to where you're going to be in a pub where support is going to be evenly divided among people who are essentially carrying out the same tribalist rows that they were when they were seven. That's a much easier situation to get into. Particularly when you can feel confident that most people know about as much about the game as you do. Also at the level that most people are into Rugby, it's simply less of an investment in time. There's simply not as much of it. You get maybe seven or eight weekends drinking in the pub and that's about it. Football is on all the fucking time.

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                                    #42
                                    posh birds
                                    Charming.

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                                      #43
                                      @DR- I was at Methodist College (and coincidentally a formal reunion event 2 weekends ago at which no-one mentioned the Trial going on across the street). Sure, RU dominated and it could be a bit of a hothouse, but hardly the Bullingdon Club

                                      At a previous do a few years ago I suggested jokingly to the head that he
                                      start the first football team sine the place opened in 1868. He did, so blame me for slight fall in pool of rugby jocks

                                      I listen to RTE regularly, largely to hear the Brexit debates. But this week the Trial has been lead story. The line tends to be shock that porn is so widely available to young kids and the effect this has when they become young adults. They'e also contrasted Belfast's public trials with Dublin's private. The latter are obv more dignified but tech again has an effect. As soon as someone outs the famous defendant on Twitter, it's public

                                      Actually I largely agree with Berba- privileged people abuse it, the IRFU won't take a serious hit, their marketing to a well off middle class is well honed. That said I wouldn't pick out any current international bar Rory Best in an ID parade

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                                        #44
                                        I've got to say that I can't imagine a scenario under which the people I've met who went to methodist college would exchange this sort of text message. Then again the ones I've met have all got the hell out of NI as quickly as they could and show no signs of wanting to go back.

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                                          #45
                                          Possibly your sample is too small to draw reliable conclusions?

                                          For the third time- this isn't your favorite 'aren't all Nordies uniquely thick/ venal' theme getting the 'one ill-informed Culchie gobshite' response. There are interlocking stories (lack of respect for women from both the legal system and wider public, the Law's slowness in responding to technology and so on) but the main discussion is as I suggested- there's widespread use of porn from an early age and those on the wrong side of that age divide (you, me, Marian Finucane, the education system have taken an eye off the ball)

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                                            #46
                                            But this isn't really about Porn DG, this is the sort of thing that professional footballers in england were engaged in from the mid nineties on. This is simply the product of a culture where young sportsmen are fucking worshipped like gods by their peers from the age of 8, worshipped by adults from the age of about 13, and then proceed to be kings of the local nightclub scene, where the distortion effect is complete. if women are following you into the toilet, it's going to be difficult to have a construct of male female relations that is going to be anything other than fucking insane. (Basically what Richie Sadlier was saying, combined with "Fame doesn't change people, it changes everyone around them") Porn isn't necessary to explain this behaviour. It existed when porn was bought on VHS in shady shops. I remember reading about the weird fondness of sportsmen to share a partner with a teammate when I was in college.

                                            This is a deflection from longstanding problems inherent in a culture onto pornography, where we can have a deeply unfruitful conversation about attempting to limit the access of children to pornography, rather than tackling the much more difficult issue of treating any youngster with good hand eye co-ordination like fucking achilles.

                                            It's 20 years since Paul Howard started writing Diary of a Schools rugby player, which is basically this sort of thing, without the rape aspects. It's nineteen books, and 3 plays now.
                                            Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 04-04-2018, 11:30.

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                                              #47
                                              The reporting restrictions have been lifted.

                                              Jackson's lawyers got photos of his room doctored because his bedsheets were covered in so many unrelated bloodstains that it would have been prejudicial.

                                              Mr Hedworth told the judge they were “sympathetic of the concerns of the defence” regarding the showing of blood-staining on the bed.

                                              “We’d submit, if one knows where to look, that one might be able to discern slight marks on the relevant areas,” he conceded.

                                              However, he argued it was important for the jury to see what the bedroom looked like on the night in question.

                                              It became clear that blood relating to the woman in this trial had been discovered on Mr Jackson’s duvet cover. However, there was other, non-related blood also present on his sheets.

                                              Mr Kelly said; “there was no evidence the blood is the blood of this complainant and that’s where we all decided to tread with care.”

                                              This other blood was “capable of causing real prejudice to the entire trial,” said Mr Kelly, adding: “I have no intention of saying where this blood came from because it is probative of this trial” and it would distract the jury.


                                              what the fuck Was this weird cunt up to?

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                                                #48
                                                Did you hear Willie John McBride on RTE today? He basically said "Boys will be boys", as if the episode was merely some rugby tour drinking larks, and is backing a petition to have them re-instated.

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                                                  #49
                                                  It's all getting exciting in Northern Ireland. Maybe the Ulster Rugby Ultras could have found a less creepily nixonian phrase than "Silent majority."

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                                                    #50
                                                    Can’t wait for the civil suit. These fuckwits are going to go Full Martyr.

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