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    Toxic masculinity

    The fallout from the Paddy Jackson trial continues to raise important ethical issues in relation to consent, acceptable discourse on social media and general respect for women, with Drogheda United and Laois GAA both forced to disassociate themselves from derogatory tweets pertaining to the complainant. Much like #MeToo, perhaps the worst behavioural excesses could be avoided if we paused to consider how we would wish other men to treat our own female relations, and acted accordingly. Easier said than done in the heel of the hunt, perhaps, but the last 24 hours have hardly been conducive to female participation in sport.

    #2
    Drogheda player has claimed the dog ate his......oh sorry,that his Twitter account was hacked

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      #3
      Second captains did a superb podcast on this today. Subscriber only though. Richie Sadlier talked about the 6 week sex education class he does with transition year students covering consent amongst others.

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        #4
        It's quite simple: teach people not to rape, as opposed to teaching people how to not get raped.

        EDIT: Also, consent is given and can be withdrawn at any time. Listen and act accordingly.

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          #5
          Well, it’s that and more. Ideally, consent should be bidirectional and not something that men take and women give.

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            #6
            Good point, well made.

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              #7
              Yeah it's got to be a bit more sophisticated than that. That's a bit putting the condom on a banana level of thing. grand for showing the principle, how do you apply to principles in the various settings. Most people know the basic idea. A lot of people aren't sure what that means.

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                #8
                Most people may know the basic idea, but what about the people who fail to apply it? Education is important and, granted, its practical application may be tricky; start with what constitutes consent and when it is given (not necessarily taken) and withdrawn and go from there. Referring to Ek Weet Nie's post above regarding a 6 week course for transition students; why not give that to everyone? Sex Ed at my school was woeful, frankly.

                EDIT: Or, I suppose, improve Sex Ed across the board.

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                  #9
                  I mean, I don't want this to be the hill I die on, but if people aren't sure what things mean in certain settings then they need to be taught, surely?

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                    #10
                    We’re all in violent agreement. The six week course mentioned is a pilot programmer in one school. There isn’t an organized curriculum around it nationwide.

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                      #11
                      It's more than just sex ed though. It's about not being narcissistic. It's about empathy and socialisation.
                      Last edited by Patrick Thistle; 29-03-2018, 21:38.

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                        #12
                        Agreed, but those things generally come with age and experience, no? I mean, I was a loudmouthed dick when I was younger (no jokes, please), but as you grow up you lose it. Hopefully.

                        The potential for harm* is there much earlier and should be addressed as such.

                        *I'm making this do a lot of work, I know, but I'm sure you know what I mean.

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                          #13
                          There has to be some form of Yes (verbal or non-verbal), not just the absence of No.

                          Alcohol is an aggravating factor, if we assume being pissed makes it harder to read gestures. It should be obvious (but to many sadly is not) that a woman who is very drunk will be borderline at best regarding ability to consent, and if she's passing out drunk and you still carry on then it's rape.

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                            #14
                            Stephen Nolan on Radio Ulster. It's phone in so they couldn't refer the case itself in case a caller said summat dodgy. Instead, the IRFU got stick for not publishing their employee code of conduct. Then everyone agonised over what is surely a straightforward PR problem (Ulster Rugby) and a stark but simple one for the players. They'll get sacked, sign elsewhere and no-one will stop going to Ravenhill as a result

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                              #15
                              Petition for jurors to be educated regarding rape myths. It's one of those official parliamentary petitions.

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                                #16
                                Originally posted by Duncan Gardner View Post
                                Stephen Nolan on Radio Ulster. It's phone in so they couldn't refer the case itself in case a caller said summat dodgy. Instead, the IRFU got stick for not publishing their employee code of conduct. Then everyone agonised over what is surely a straightforward PR problem (Ulster Rugby) and a stark but simple one for the players. They'll get sacked, sign elsewhere and no-one will stop going to Ravenhill as a result
                                I don't know if they'll be sacked DG This is Northern Ireland we're talking about after all, and ulster Rugby. There's a lot of their supporters that think he did nothing wrong, and sponsors are going to have to decide if they want to take hassle from the interested women of northern Ireland, or the interested men. he's only got a year left on his contract, so I'd say he'll have a low profile year, and then fuck off to the UK where barely a word was written about this.

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                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
                                  I don't know if they'll be sacked DG This is Northern Ireland we're talking about after all, and ulster Rugby. There's a lot of their supporters that think he did nothing wrong, and sponsors are going to have to decide if they want to take hassle from the interested women of northern Ireland, or the interested men. he's only got a year left on his contract, so I'd say he'll have a low profile year, and then fuck off to the UK where barely a word was written about this
                                  It's the current lead story on BBC News

                                  Would the reaction have been any different in Limerick or Galway? I think not. The PR hit to the IRFU outweighs annoyance to your favorite ruggerbugger freemasonic DUP conspiracy

                                  So the players will be off whether it happens next week or during the summer. They won't be forced into a TV confesional like the Aussie cricketers, I agree

                                  Had to smile when my cousin (local journo) told Nolan that none of her brothers or other young men she knows talk like that about women. You don't need to spend too long in downtown Belfast to hear middle aged women doing so, as I did on Saturday lunchtime. OK, it was a hen party in St George's Market but apart from my sister in law no-one took any notice of them or their giant-size dildo

                                  Last edited by Duncan Gardner; 30-03-2018, 14:50.

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                                    #18
                                    It's the current lead story on BBC News
                                    Surely the correct answer was, "he's already in the UK"

                                    you're not as quick as you used to be

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                                      #19
                                      I spotted it but am now moving towards post-UK

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                                        #20
                                        The podcast that ek weet nie praised upthread is now available without a subscription

                                        https://twitter.com/SecondCaptains/status/979746556315422720

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                                          #21
                                          Would the reaction have been any different in Limerick or Galway? I think not. The PR hit to the IRFU outweighs annoyance to your favorite ruggerbugger freemasonic DUP conspiracy

                                          I think I made that point on another thread. I don't know if it would even have reached court if it was say galway hurlers, or leinster rugby players . On the one hand the story is about local sporting legends acting as though it means something. But on the other hand, one of the primary reasons advanced by the complainant in her next day Whatsapp messages, for not wanting to make a complaint was that she thought that trying to bring a prosecution against the forces of Ulster Rugby was pointless.

                                          That's not necessarily just an Ulster thing though. in 2000 a young lad was savagely kicked to death in front of annabels nightclub (in the Burlington hotel, a stones throw from lansdowne road) in front of hundreds of eye witnesses by a substantial chunk of a recent Blackrock senior cup team. The gardai managed to get two convictions for violent disorder, because two of the people admitted that they had been involved in the melee. It's not a DUP prod conspiracy, it's a conspiracy of wealth middle aged men with horrendous attitudes towards women and people who are not them.

                                          One of the most disturbing things I heard about that trial, was that it was the first time they had filled that massive court for anything other than sentencing. It was full every single day. One third of the crowd was people related to the defendants and the accused, and journalists. Two thirds were ulster rugby fans, unconnected to the people involved, who were there to show their support. What kind of person does this? I mean this happens down here too from time to time, and when it does, it makes the news, and people in general judge those people, they judge them harshly. These are the people that would be upset by sponsors taking issue with these two players.

                                          You see, I'm not really sure how this impacts on the IRFU. This doesn't have anything to do with them, other than Ireland picked Paddy Jackson for a game last year when they already knew he had been arrested, but before he was charged. Also while that story is a couple of clicks into the BBC website, it's only there that high up the page, because it's a story about a juror in a case that talked about it online.

                                          Had to smile when my cousin (local journo) told Nolan that none of her brothers or other young men she knows talk like that about women. You don't need to spend too long in downtown Belfast to hear middle aged women doing so, as I did on Saturday lunchtime. OK, it was a hen party in St George's Market but apart from my sister in law no-one took any notice of them or their giant-size dildo

                                          I don't know DG, Have you read what they were saying?
                                          Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 30-03-2018, 17:21.

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                                            #22
                                            BTW does anyone have any idea what that juror was saying on Broadsheet.ie? PM's only the Lord chief justice in NI is all over this like a rash
                                            Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 30-03-2018, 18:26.

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                                              #23
                                              The Laois player has been dropped for tomorrow's Division Four final - interestingly, he had been the top scorer in the country up to that point, so should have had more cop-on.

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                                                #24
                                                Not sure why him being top scorer would imply he had more cop on. But fair dues to Laois County board for throwing their star under the bus for being a cunt, before their biggest game in a couple of years. The Womens side of the GAA is growing exponentially, and they're making huge strides in getting girls involved in playing team sports. This sort of bollocks can't be tolerated.

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                                                  #25
                                                  @Berba

                                                  1 Yes I read that Joe.ie link. Privileged young men behave oafishly. Of course the slang used and the technology have changed since your day or mine, but is it really anything new under the Sun?

                                                  2 What point are you making about real or notional Leinster players acting similarly? They wouldn't have been taken to Court, or they would?

                                                  3 This whole thing affects the IRFU as its high profile is down to two guys who are effectively their employees. They'll take a short-term bad PR hit as I described

                                                  4 The Courtroom tourism thing is a bit crass . There's a way round that- exclude the public from rape trials

                                                  5 On the SC show weeks ago- early in the 6 Nations- the lads dissed Joe Schmidt and Rory Best (Ireland coach and captain) for taking a time out to talk about this (or turn up in Court, as Best did). The impression I got was clearly 'Why are they involved in this sideshow, we've a game to win'

                                                  6 I havent read about the Laois/ Drog guys yet but generally much higher profile slebs (Steve Smith, Jonny Evans this month) show their lack of 'cop on' all the time

                                                  ps would you mind not saying 'I'm unsure' or 'don't know' when you mean pretty much the opposite? Ta
                                                  Last edited by Duncan Gardner; 31-03-2018, 09:10.

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