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    #51
    Well the Jews were in Hollywood making the movies : )

    Yeah. That was the way the Western world was back then. Why would you expect movies to be any different than publishing, or the visual arts? Even in music and dance, where black people's contributions were more visible they were generally diminished, marginalised and ripped off. But what would you have us do it about today? Ignore the totality of half a century's cinematic production? Because pretty much every film back then had a black maid or porter step-'n'-fetchin' in the background, and female characters being leered at. If you think it's appropriate maybe there should a warning before the title: "This film contains racist and sexist content that may offend some viewers because it was made three generations ago."

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      #52
      Oh man. Singin' in the rain is amazing.

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        #53
        The Anniversary. Bette Davis does English accent with an eyepatch and untold malice. (Not forgetting Sheila Hancock and Jack Hedley.)

        *Although, it is late 60's.

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          #54
          Originally posted by Amor de Cosmos View Post
          Well the Jews were in Hollywood making the movies : )

          Yeah. That was the way the Western world was back then. Why would you expect movies to be any different than publishing, or the visual arts? Even in music and dance, where black people's contributions were more visible they were generally diminished, marginalised and ripped off. But what would you have us do it about today? Ignore the totality of half a century's cinematic production? Because pretty much every film back then had a black maid or porter step-'n'-fetchin' in the background, and female characters being leered at. If you think it's appropriate maybe there should a warning before the title: "This film contains racist and sexist content that may offend some viewers because it was made three generations ago."
          It's an age-old debate, isn't it? Can one divorce the bigotry from its age? Can and should the 1930s oeuvre of Riefenstahl -- which can be said is very much of its particular age -- be rehabilitated?

          There came a point when "Birth Of A Nation" became practically outlawed for everyone except film students because even in Racist Hollywood, its racism was a bit too much. By all accounts it's a visual masterpiece of storytelling, but its story should not be told. There are some films from the Golden Age whose stories perhaps should not be told.

          BUT: where does one draw that line? I'd happily ostracise Gone With The Wind, but I'm not sure I'd draw a red line through Stagecoach, problematic though it is and much as I can't ascribe its racism to its times. Other people will obviously feel differently, because their take-away from these films will be different to mine. If I was a programmer of a classic movies channel, I'd apply discernment and maybe would do just what AdC proposes: preface some films with a warning label.

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            #55
            This is a bizarrely wide thread. "Old films that are tremendous" - I'd be here all week doing justice to that category. The period from the 20s to the early 60s isn't called the "Golden Age" of Hollywood for nothing, and it was also a great age for British cinema. "Recent films that are tremendous" might be a more speedily manageable category for me.

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              #56
              Originally posted by Amor de Cosmos View Post
              Well the Jews were in Hollywood making the movies : )

              Yeah. That was the way the Western world was back then. Why would you expect movies to be any different than publishing, or the visual arts? Even in music and dance, where black people's contributions were more visible they were generally diminished, marginalised and ripped off. But what would you have us do it about today? Ignore the totality of half a century's cinematic production? Because pretty much every film back then had a black maid or porter step-'n'-fetchin' in the background, and female characters being leered at. If you think it's appropriate maybe there should a warning before the title: "This film contains racist and sexist content that may offend some viewers because it was made three generations ago."
              (you mean the unwatchable tom and jerry episodes?) well you know what you're getting into with a hollywood western I suppose. it's just the forging of a particularly dishonest national myth in front of our eyes. John Ford is an odd case, because he's a strong illustration of the compromises people have to make with the movie industry of their time. He wanted to make the Grapes of Wrath, but had to make a lot of westerns to do that, and he made westerns like a man who really wanted to make another grapes of wrath, and that's why they're the ones that have worn the best. The Quiet man is an utterly awful movie from beginning to end, and the depiction of Irish people in it is truly bizarre. But He wanted to make a movie in Connemara, because he wanted to visit his relations (father from spiddal, mother from the biggest Aran Island) and improve his spoken Irish, and also show to the American audience just what Connemara looked like (With a lot more trees than in reality). The Depiction of Irish people in that movie isn't the result of cultural insensitivity on the part of the film maker, This was the movie he had to make. He'd probably have much preferred to make "The Field", and he created the American tourist industry in Connemara, so he can do no wrong in my Mother's eyes.

              but John Wayne really annoys me because he became the spokesman for that myth. The Ones that have survived are the one that tried to tell a slightly different story. There is a common kind of theme running through a lot of these films that people still think are tremendous, and they are generally that the movie itself saw beyond the time in which it was made. A huge part of the reason why Casablanca is still so watchable is that even though it is an obviously anti-Nazi film, (which in itself wears pretty well) Rick really doesn't think very much of his own side. Anyone who fought in the international brigades in the spanish civil war not only has a low opinion of the Germans and the Italians, but they are going to be profoundly unimpressed with the English, the French and they're going to be fucking terrified of stalin, and given Rick's life choices (Smuggling weapons into Ethiopia) we already know that Rick doesn't think much of the Americans. Colonialism is never really portrayed as anything other than irredeemably corrupt, with characters as appealing as Renault making it clear that this is just the system, and ordinary people have to make their way in it the best they can.

              Old movies that give women Agency last a lot better, (indeed so little advance has been made on this front in mainstream cinema and television, that these movies are glaringly obvious) and there's a few scattered over these pages, but I suppose really the best example I can think of is the last line of Some like it Hot. That film is going to basically live forever as a lead up to that line. The previous couple of hours of lunatics passing off quite a nuanced exploration of gender issues, as a farcical marilyn Monroe musical comedy, flicking v-signs at contemporary society as they go, and mooning the hays code for a couple of hours, is all well and really good, but the whole film is ultimately about Osgood. He's found his happiness, and he honestly couldn't give a fuck about what anyone thinks. Labels mean nothing to him, he goes from being an aging lifelong heterosexual in 1930's america to being a homosexual, with all that entails, in a second and doesn't blink an eye, because he's happy, and he's not going to let something as insignificant as a label get in the way of his happiness. For him the path to happiness is acceptance of others, and ultimately of himself, and That's a message that's going to keep that movie made in Eisenhower's america alive long after we're all dead.

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                #57
                Talking Pictures TV is a good channel for black and white films, incidentally. Freesat 306, Sky 343, Virgin 445.

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                  #58
                  And Freeview 81.

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                    #59
                    Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
                    Old movies that give women Agency last a lot better,
                    The 1930s and '40s had women with buckets of agency -- and great lines (in part because scriptwriters find genius ways to work around the Production Code). Of course, the sexual and economic exploitation of women was rampant, but often women were portrayed with much power. That started to fade with the advent of the pin-ups and the decline of the Code.

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                      #60
                      Just a flying visit to predictably mention some of my old staples (since others don't seem to have ...I think). Thus...

                      'La Ronde'
                      'Letter From An Unknown Woman'
                      'Ikiru'
                      ...and yes...
                      'Ballad Of A Soldier'

                      Just don't watch them all consecutively - you'd kill yourself!

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                        #61
                        Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post

                        A huge part of the reason why Casablanca is still so watchable is that even though it is an obviously anti-Nazi film, (which in itself wears pretty well) Rick really doesn't think very much of his own side. Anyone who fought in the international brigades in the spanish civil war not only has a low opinion of the Germans and the Italians, but they are going to be profoundly unimpressed with the English, the French and they're going to be fucking terrified of stalin, and given Rick's life choices (Smuggling weapons into Ethiopia) we already know that Rick doesn't think much of the Americans. Colonialism is never really portrayed as anything other than irredeemably corrupt, with characters as appealing as Renault making it clear that this is just the system, and ordinary people have to make their way in it the best they can.
                        Casablanca is still hugely watchable because it's perfectly cast. Everyone is absolutely spot on. It also has an excellent script, stuffed with more memorable lines than any ninety-minute film has a right to expect. The story is no more than adequate, but given everything else it has going for it that doesn't matter. Thing is Hollywood was never about acting, in any theatrical sense, it was about personality. Bogart wasn't playing Rick. Rick became Bogart, just as Sam Spade became Bogart and the Ringo Kid became John Wayne in Stagecoach. It was the film where Wayne made that leap, from then on every character he played, inevitably, became John Wayne.

                        I first saw Stagecoach after traveling across Canada by train in 1972. For a twenty-three-year-old who, bar a few trips to Europe, had never left the UK it was both magnificent and terrifying. Sublime in a genuine sense. To me Stagecoach captured much of that feeling. The film is primarily landscape, Monument Valley for the most part. Ford turns it into a character. Its immensity, it's beauty, its threat. The "Apaches" are part of that, never personified, they're elemental, like the rocks and the wind. Barreling through all this is a small room on wheels packed with people. American Immigrants in the 1930s knew a lot about crowded rooms. If they stop the land will kill them, they need to just keep moving and everything will be OK when they get to... wherever, just somewhere. Wayne, of course, never does. The film ends with him hightailing it to Mexico. It's brilliant stuff.
                        Last edited by Amor de Cosmos; 16-03-2018, 18:27.

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                          #62
                          Watched "Casablanca" for the first time recently and loved it. It, for the time, was a sophisticated insight into a certain period of the war and the geo-political context around it I thought. It reminded me of "Citizen Kane" which I avoided for years as it seemed it never would never live up to the hype but it almost did. Another classic that I only saw recently was "It's a Wonderful Life" which I loved and had, again, a much more sophisticated plot than I imagined.

                          More votes for Some Like It Hot and Rear Window - which are both in my top five favourite films of all time, Sweet Smell of Success and Whisky Galore. I would also add:

                          Gilda
                          Touch of Evil (the opening lengthy tracking shot having been ripped off by many directors)
                          Passport to Pimlico
                          To Kill A Mockingbird
                          Papillon (if this isn't too modern but if Ghostbusters counts...)
                          The original Planet Of The Apes (ditto)
                          Spartacus
                          Cool Hand Luke
                          Magnificent Seven

                          Still have got to see "Gone With The Wind", "Lawrence Of Arabia" and "The Sound Of Music" actually.

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                            #63
                            Bogart wasn't playing Rick. Rick became Bogart, just as Sam Spade became Bogart and the Ringo Kid became John Wayne in Stagecoach
                            On the other hand, some of Bogey's best films involve him playing against type, like The Treasure Of Sierra Madre or The Caine Mutiny.

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                              #64
                              Against heroic type sure but he's still incontrovertibly himself. The studio system wouldn't have allowed him to be otherwise, even if he'd been able to. Hollywood stars didn't inhabit a character, in the classic European theatrical sense. They wore it like a cape. Jimmy Stewart, Clark Gable, Gregory Peck, Spencer Tracy Katherine Hepburn, Bette Davis and on, and on, never looked like anyone else, though they played a multitude of diverse roles. That only began to change in the late 50s-60s with the decline of studios' production control.

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                                #65
                                Originally posted by Ginger Yellow View Post
                                On the other hand, some of Bogey's best films involve him playing against type, like The Treasure Of Sierra Madre or The Caine Mutiny.
                                I can't quite get my head around the idea that for much of his career, Bogart was cast as a pretty boy. That changed only when he was in his late 30s, when he suddenly became typecast as a gangster. From that his tough guy persona evolved.

                                Apparently he wasn't like his screen persona in private life (he was also shorter than he seemed). But if he was in public and a fan approached him, he switched on the Bogart act with the gruffness and the slight lisp he apparently affected.


                                Originally posted by Bordeaux Education View Post
                                Still have got to see "Gone With The Wind", "Lawrence Of Arabia" and "The Sound Of Music" actually.
                                There are better ways to spend movie-watching than any of those. Instead of The Sound Of Music, a film of exaggerated artistic merit, watch the MGM musicals of the 1950s. Singin' In The Rain is the greatest of the lot, but there's great fun to be had with An American In Paris, The Bandwagon or Gigi (which is a very sly satire with some marvellous performances). I'd add On The Town (from the late '40s), though the humour is very much of its time. Still, the set-pieces are superb.

                                Lawrence Of Arabia is good but way, way too long. But, you know, David Lean... So it's invariably beautiful to look at.

                                Gone With The Wind has its set pieces (such as the burning of Atlanta sequence) but it is not a great movie. Plus it's racist. But mostly it's just boring. It's like one of those early Coldplay albums where you know those two songs from the video and don't mind them or even like them, and then you listen to the album and you want to kill yourself.

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                                  #66
                                  Louise Brooks wrote an article on early Bogart
                                  http://www.psykickgirl.com/lulu/bogey.html

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                                    #67
                                    Watch Mulholland Drive on shrooms, peaking. And Sunset Boulevard coming down. That’s Hollywood, baby.
                                    Last edited by Lang Spoon; 17-03-2018, 02:30.

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                                      #68
                                      Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
                                      Louise Brooks wrote an article on early Bogart
                                      http://www.psykickgirl.com/lulu/bogey.html
                                      The remarkable thing, just reading the opening lines of that article, is how easy it is to forget that his name was Humphrey. Humphrey.

                                      HUMPHREY BOGART SPENT THE LAST twenty-one years of his life laboriously converting the established character of a middle-aged man from that of a conventional, well-bred theatre actor named Humphrey
                                      I actually went, "Oh, was that his real name, then, like John Wayne's was Marion?" Then I twigged that he wasn't known by any other name, it's just that his rather twee and tweedy first name gets somehow completely hidden in plain sight, by the manliness and iconic quality of the 'Bogart'. I legitimately had to stop and work this out, though.

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                                        #69
                                        In his day, Humphrey would likely have been the masculine-sounding part of his name.

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                                          #70
                                          In days when president's were named Warren, Calvin, Herbert and Franklin.

                                          That Brooks piece is fascinating.

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                                            #71
                                            Some old stuff I've enjoyed;

                                            The Ipcress File,
                                            Wild Strawberries,
                                            Battle of Algiers,
                                            Tokyo Story,
                                            Bicycle Thieves,
                                            Seven Days To Noon,
                                            The Day The Earth Caught Fire,
                                            The War Game,
                                            Some Like it Hot,
                                            12 Angry Men,
                                            Hell Drivers,
                                            Ashes and Diamonds,
                                            Closely Observed Trains,
                                            Night Train.

                                            I also recommend Talking Pictures TV

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                                              #72
                                              One that just came to mind - Psychomania. So bad, it's great.

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                                                #73
                                                It Happened Here on that you tube

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                                                  #74
                                                  Originally posted by Kowalski View Post
                                                  It Happened Here on that you tube
                                                  I'm watching it now - great spot.

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                                                    #75
                                                    Re: Silent Films
                                                    It's funny how things have changed since binge watching. As a 19-year-old, I saw Erich Von Stroheim's Greed. I remember hearing about the 8 hour version, and the producers were so angry he'd spend so much money on a movie that was astronomically long for the 1920s, and ended up destroying most of the film. I remember thinking "thank god, no one could sit through a movie for that long."

                                                    Then a few years later, they released Von Trier's The Kingdom in US theaters, showing all 4 hours with a 2 hour break. I was absolutely blown away.

                                                    Nowadays we watch 14-18 episodes straight, and it's no big thing.

                                                    Now it really hits me, what a rotten, rotten, rotten circumstance it is that Greed was destroyed, because the 2 hours was one of the best things I've ever seen.

                                                    Sunrise cast a magical spell over me when I first saw it, but these days is kind of hard to get over the attempted wife murder. The cinematography is still better than just about anything.

                                                    Re: Casablanca
                                                    The second time I saw it, it really struck me how f'n fast the movie is. Because of the flashbacks, one may remember it as an hours-long epic. Then you see it again and it's very fast.
                                                    It's funny how the Bogart archetype - the old, busted, seen-it-all, crusty crab hasn't been replicated in decades. One can still be blown away by a Bogie movie because there hasn't been once since.

                                                    Re: Godfather & Donnie Brasco
                                                    If we put the statute of limitations for old films at 20 years, then I'll include Donnie Brasco. What's amazing is Al Pacino going full circle from Michael to Lefty. Michael is a good person, who gets sucked into then becoming entranced by power. Lefty is a bad person, who gets sucked into and becoming entranced by goodness. By finding brotherly and fatherly love for the first time, Lefty will discover he is a good and kind person. He will end up truly finding love for his girlfriend. By discovering power, Michael will lose his family.

                                                    Both characters are trapped, Michael by his family, Lefty by his job. What hit me about Donnie Brasco the second time, was how the FBI was as dark a force for Donnie as Sonny Black's gang was for Lefty. In many ways, it serves as a template for The Wire, where the Greek Gods of those groups in power will torture the mortals that exist under them. Donnie and Lefty will discover love for each other, because they are workers trapped by more incompetent and obstinate overlords.

                                                    What hit me the second time with the Godfather, is how Michael's broken jaw will end up resembling Don Vito's. Because of Vito's weird jaw, we see how it was probably broken by a cop when he was Michael's age. The broken jaw is when Michael makes his move from son to Don.

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