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    Music Revisionism

    Whitney Houston's vocals on "I Will Always Love You"... my goodness, they are incredible. I had avoided that song for such a long time, in great part because that arrangement (by David Foster, I think) which only has one drum beat and a pause to recommend itself. Hearing it with fresh ears, or with ears jaded by having heard too much R&B yodelling, I was astonished by what Whitney did there. Of course, it's bombastic; I prefer Dolly sing it her way. But the way Whitney uses her range, building up to that climax and then erupts in pyrotechnic overkill is in itself quite impressive, even beautiful. And I don't think the accusation of her overdoing the melisma sticks. She's not overdoing it the way people like Patti LaBelle and Aretha did before her, and the way virtually every Beyonce Aguilera Carey has since.

    So, that's my bit of revisionism: "I Will Always Love You" as a vocal masterpiece. Your turn to revise (or to tell, me I'm off my nut, of course).

    #2
    I'm sure there won't be too many dissenting voices here but I'll say it anyway:

    Imagine is the biggest load of old shite ever written. It's trite, hypocritical, mawkish - bad sixth-form poetry set to someone playing the ol' joanna daaaahn the pub.

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      #3
      I was a massive Beatles obsessive, but that fucking tune has me agreeing wholeheartedly with the sentiments in Mowtown Junk.

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        #4
        Originally posted by G-Man View Post
        So, that's my bit of revisionism: "I Will Always Love You" as a vocal masterpiece. Your turn to revise (or to tell, me I'm off my nut, of course).
        It's technically a vocal masterpiece. Doesn't mean I want to listen to it though.

        As for me, Robert Wyatt. I really don't understand the adulation he receives; he can't fucking sing at all.

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          #5
          Since when did 'being able to sing' preclude the producing of decent music? (See also: Hendrix, Bob Dylan, Mark E Smith, etc.)

          Anyways, I much preferred Whitney when she wasn't doing all that overblown, bombastic nonsense. A great voice doesn't need to jump through unnecessary hoops like that. (It just makes me think of an artist overworking a painting - except in this case, she was probably under 'advice'...)

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            #6
            Originally posted by Jah Womble View Post
            Since when did 'being able to sing' preclude the producing of decent music? (See also: Hendrix, Bob Dylan, Mark E Smith, etc.)
            There are good bad-singers (Dylan and Hendrix are good examples). Wyatt, however, is a bad bad-singer.

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              #7
              I'm in the camp with those admiring Whitney's vocal strengths but wincing at the gymnastics. I most enjoyed her very first hit Saving All My Love For You, which IIRC she played pretty straight.

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                #8
                Originally posted by Stumpy Pepys View Post
                There are good bad-singers (Dylan and Hendrix are good examples). Wyatt, however, is a bad bad-singer.
                While I'll concede that a whole album might be pushing it, Wyatt's voice has a fragility that works for me on certain songs.

                At the risk of using an obvious example, Shipbuilding is twice the song under his handling - and I like Elvis's rendition a lot.

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by Jah Womble View Post
                  While I'll concede that a whole album might be pushing it, Wyatt's voice has a fragility that works for me on certain songs.
                  As here. The end section is profound, and devastating.

                  To tie in with the thread, in a way - Paul Weller appears in that video, and I've never been able to bear just about anything he does.

                  Actually, the thread isn't really tied in to in any way by that comment. As you were. Sorry.

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by Jah Womble View Post
                    While I'll concede that a whole album might be pushing it, Wyatt's voice has a fragility that works for me on certain songs.

                    At the risk of using an obvious example, Shipbuilding is twice the song under his handling - and I like Elvis's rendition a lot.
                    I'd never heard his cover of At Last I Am Free until I saw Green Gartside, Alexis Taylor and Rhodri Marsden cover it at the Bury Met late last year. They name-checked it so I searched it out when I got home, downloaded it and have loved it ever since.

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by Jah Womble View Post
                      Since when did 'being able to sing' preclude the producing of decent music? (See also: Hendrix, Bob Dylan, Mark E Smith, etc.)

                      Anyways, I much preferred Whitney when she wasn't doing all that overblown, bombastic nonsense. A great voice doesn't need to jump through unnecessary hoops like that. (It just makes me think of an artist overworking a painting - except in this case, she was probably under 'advice'...)
                      Thing is, I don't think she's overdoing the melisma on "I Will Always Love You", not in comparison to the vocal gymnastics of LaBelle or Franklin before her, or Carey and Boyz II Men alongside her, or Beyoncé and Aguilera after. It is actually much more restrained than I had it in my mind (though I had "totally fucking unrestrained" in my mind). Even the melisma at the end is perfectly consistent with the traditions of soul and gospel that Whitney came from.

                      To be clear, I'm talking about the vocals, not the unlovable and, indeed, bombastic arrangement of the song.

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                        #12
                        Aretha knew more instinctively when to use it and when to leave it the hell alone, IMO. I always rather suspected that Whitney (a good singer, but not for me in Franklin's league) was under considerable tutelage or, as I suggested, management pressure.

                        Certainly, when Mariah Carey came along c 1990 and somehow stole Whitney's crown with her very ersatz brand of emoting, the latter seemed suddenly to start doing all this stuff far more, almost as if trying too hard to win back the box seat from La Carey.

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                          #13
                          Mariah Carey and more especially, Celine Dion can both FUCK RIGHT OFF.

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by Gerontophile View Post
                            ... and more especially, Celine Dion can both FUCK RIGHT OFF.
                            Well, colour me shocked.

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                              #15
                              Bigot. <winky thing>

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                                #16
                                I don’t really like Pet Sounds. Early Beach Boys is more fun. California Girls (that intro!) is a better realization of a teenage pop symphony, or whatever Brian talked of trying to make, Smile is far more sophisticated without as much gloop. When I hear the instrumentals I hear Henry Mancini, or even backing music on Wonderful World of Disney shitty “nature” films. Sloop John B can fuck off.

                                And Van the Man? Get tae fuck. Astral Weeks, TB Sheets, that’s his only reason to exist, the rest is shite.
                                Last edited by Lang Spoon; 20-02-2018, 23:12.

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                                  #17
                                  Moondance is a wonderful album.

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                                    #18
                                    People keep saying that. Maybe if I heard it before Astral Weeks I could give it houseroom. Just hear white Dad Jazz croon shite instead. My fault I’m sure. As it is it’s like beans on toast when you were promised a big feed of lobster. Astral weeks sounds like nothing on Earth, Moondance is dripping in its nods to another time, another place.

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                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by G-Man View Post
                                      Whitney Houston's vocals on "I Will Always Love You"... my goodness, they are incredible. I had avoided that song for such a long time, in great part because that arrangement (by David Foster, I think) which only has one drum beat and a pause to recommend itself. Hearing it with fresh ears, or with ears jaded by having heard too much R&B yodelling, I was astonished by what Whitney did there. Of course, it's bombastic; I prefer Dolly sing it her way. But the way Whitney uses her range, building up to that climax and then erupts in pyrotechnic overkill is in itself quite impressive, even beautiful. And I don't think the accusation of her overdoing the melisma sticks. She's not overdoing it the way people like Patti LaBelle and Aretha did before her, and the way virtually every Beyonce Aguilera Carey has since.

                                      So, that's my bit of revisionism: "I Will Always Love You" as a vocal masterpiece. Your turn to revise (or to tell, me I'm off my nut, of course).
                                      I'll wade in.

                                      I hate that song.
                                      I generally hate "vocal masterpieces."
                                      I like the Dolly Parton version, though that's a bit overcooked too.


                                      To be clear, I'm talking about the vocals, not the unlovable and, indeed, bombastic arrangement of the song.
                                      I can't separate them. Maybe if somebody did a remix with just her vocals, I could reappraise.
                                      Last edited by Hot Pepsi; 20-02-2018, 21:37.

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                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by 3 Colours Red View Post
                                        I'm sure there won't be too many dissenting voices here but I'll say it anyway:

                                        Imagine is the biggest load of old shite ever written. It's trite, hypocritical, mawkish - bad sixth-form poetry set to someone playing the ol' joanna daaaahn the pub.
                                        I see your point, but I think it stands up if you don't think too hard about the lyrics or the hypocrisy. It's a nice little piano ditty. It would well if it were just about cats or something like that.

                                        Nothing wrong with sixth-form poetry if it's at least honest, as opposed to a clever attempt to *sound like* poetry.

                                        But the hypocrisy really grates. If John Lennon really walked the walk - and wasn't such a dick who constantly preached about stuff he didn't understand - and did something like, I dunno, go live on an organic farm and drop out of society or something like that, it would just sound like the sincere hopes of a guy who'd got sick of it all, and I could really respect that even if it seemed a bit simplistic.

                                        The video just puts it over the top. FFS
                                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkgkThdzX-8
                                        Last edited by Hot Pepsi; 20-02-2018, 21:44.

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                                          #21
                                          Then all you’ve got is a Simple Jack piano riff.

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                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
                                            I don’t really like Pet Sounds.
                                            Do you want to meet outside so we can talk about it?

                                            Seriously, though, I agree on Sloop John B, it has no place on the record, and was only included on insistence by the record company. The rest, however, is pure genius.

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                                              #23
                                              I know, it’s my fault. But no. I’ve been trying since 94 to convince myself I like more than maybe 4 or 5 stone genius songs on it, but the filler, it kills it for me.

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                                                #24
                                                It's the greatest album ever made, in my opinion, but it's possible to dislike it if you can't connect to the idea of a 24 year old from California using complex arrangements to take you on a journey through a teenage romance through all its stages to the disillusionment of the last two tracks. There is a lot of desolation on the album despite the optimism of its two big singles (although God Only Knows has a rather negative opening line for a love song).

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                                                  #25
                                                  I first heard Pet Sounds as a piece a while after hearing tantalizing fragments of Smile on a Sunday evening Proper Music documentary on Radio 1 after the charts. Ruined it for me I suppose. Pet Sounds just seemed so striped shirts and feeding animals compared to the total beauty of Wonderful (they played the full track!), Surf’s Up piano demo, the raucous double-dipped strawberries meets Gershwin meets Ives meets Americana (without boring The Band dreary earnestness and faux authenticity) stunner Cabinessence. Do you Dig Worms? Wind Chimes, In the Cantina segment, was like a new world taping that aged 16 after waiting for Ride getting in the top ten with some half baked progness. (The 8 minute song from Going Blank Again). And the lyrics man! Van Dyke Parks ftw.

                                                  Of course, the newly assembled Smile is a bit disappointing compared to when it was just hours and hours and hours of fragments of Heroes and Villains repeating riffs being stitched together by weirdos on Napster.
                                                  Last edited by Lang Spoon; 20-02-2018, 23:11.

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