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Lobster Boy (was: This Jordan Peterson Guy)

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    Funny how the same right wingers that don’t want folk to have kids without steady income are often the loudest against abortion. But sure in their heads issues like poverty aren’t structural but Your Fault, so pay the price.

    They want the old world back, if not fascism. Condemn a little more, understand a little less. I remember how my mum was treated as a single parent in receipt of welfare (and she was in employment). Like dirt. My dads mum had a horrific time, barely enough cash to feed the kids after her fuckhead husband abandoned her with 6 kids. Plus the horrible Presbyterian face of 60s Scotland.

    If police raided say frat boy gaffs or gentleman’s clubs full of brokers as much as trumped up possession charges on African Americans like the NYPD you might see different results as to IQ and race in jail.
    Last edited by Lang Spoon; 28-03-2018, 17:56.

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      I hate these people, JP and Murray and the like. There is no structural poverty or crime or reasons for lower IQ, nah, it’s Your Own Fault, Snowflake. Hope their kids end up in jail or on smack.

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        Originally posted by Bruno
        Now see this doesn't sound like the neutral summaries of the book's arguments that I've read. I realize that there were and are people making these arguments. The book's overarching point is that intelligence is a more reliable predictor (based on correlation stats) of life achievement than parental socioeconomic status. So it's not just black men with low IQ who are more predisposed to criminality, it's anyone with low IQ, and it happens that blacks had measured lower in the aggregate. The different environmental conditions of the latter might make them still more predisposed, but that's not something that the authors would deny.

        It's not their view that women on welfare don't deserve education and opportunities, it's that a low IQ makes it more likely that you'll end up on welfare (which is likely true) and that welfare is actually an impediment to opportunity. I'm for having a welfare system with built-in incentives and opportunities to leave it, but they of course take the typical right-wing line. They're against welfare because they view it as the government effectively subsidizing a higher birth-rate among the poor, thereby perpetuating their own economic predicament. They recommend better access to and education about birth control. That's not "eugenics" and it's not explaining poverty as a result of low intelligence full stop, it's counseling that poverty is being made intractable by government policy.
        In Charles Murray's own words

        “Try to imagine a … presidential candidate saying in front of the cameras, ‘One reason that we still have poverty in the United States is that a lot of poor people are born lazy.’ You cannot imagine it because that kind of thing cannot be said. And yet this unimaginable statement merely implies that when we know the complete genetic story, it will turn out that the population below the poverty line in the United States has a configuration of the relevant genetic makeup that is significantly different from the configuration of the population above the poverty line. This is not unimaginable. It is almost certainly true.”
        —“Deeper Into the Brain,” National Review, 2000
        I really don't understand why you're still trying to defend this, given we now know it's based on groundwork laid by white supremacist pseudo-scientists.

        "Low IQ people are predisposed to criminality and black people have on average lower IQs" is a logically equivalent statement to "Black people are predisposed to criminality" so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make there either.

        Race science and eugenics are responsible for some of biggest evils in human history and we should reject them out of hand.

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          IQ tests are so fucking problematic, and the concept of 'race' is so absurdly shaky, that anyone administering IQ tests to "compare the races" needs to be dragged out the back and beaten until they know better. Lets just leave it at that.

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            Yeah, would be a nice point to end this perplexing thread. I’m half terrified a bunch of frog emoji pricks will soon find their way here after some ferocious fap session googling stuff on their mentor. A million Luke Rs now.

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              Originally posted by Bruno
              Make up your own mind about it, but the quote lifted out of context seems to give the wrong idea of where he was going with it.
              It's an extraordinary distortion of Goldman's position (which was access to birth control was crucial for women's emancipation and for the emancipation of the working classes). Note that this was at a point where contraception (and abortion) was illegal and advocates (including Goldman) were arrested and imprisoned.

              She did argue that "crippled, defective children" were the result of "indiscriminate breeding" which is a dubious (and ableist) position, and praised Robert Malthus (who was a eugenicist).

              But it's clear she advocates birth control as a means of supporting working class autonomy.

              Not defending per se, or not for the sake of it, just noticing disparities between what I'd read and what was being asserted. My view of Murray is that he's probably a racist. That doesn't make me want to run away screaming from him. I'm as interested in how articulate racists think and argue as anything else; I'm not vulnerable to being turned into a racist by "engaging" with them. Lots of people on the right are probably racists on some level but I still might read their stuff. I don't care if that perplexes anyone.

              This article seems to present a fair and balanced (and negative) judgment of Murray:

              https://www.currentaffairs.org/2017/...-murray-odious

              This paragraph basically encapsulates what has kept me posting here, not just about Murray but others too:
              That piece is sloppy as fuck and legitimises Murray's fraudulent scholarship based on methodologically dubious work that was commissioned, funded and carried out by white supremacists and has been contradicted by studies out by people who aren't openly racist. Race. Doesn't. Exist. Anyone reaching conclusions based on race and attributing it to genetics is a horrendous fraud.

              Again, I don't know why you're defending this scientific fraud.
              Last edited by Bizarre Löw Triangle; 29-03-2018, 09:06.

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                Fuck, this 'un's a go'er, eh? I mean, it's just two guys in a rowboat at this point, but damn they've got stamina.

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                  My view of Murray is that he's probably a racist. That doesn't make me want to run away screaming from him. I'm as interested in how articulate racists think and argue as anything else;
                  Hmm

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                    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.joe...-summer-620616

                    JP and Sam Harris, and Douglas Murray! That’s a 13000 arena. God save us.

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                      It won't infuriate. It won't surprise anyone familiar with Andrew Sullivan that he'll make that kind of statement. And it won't surprise anyone to discover that Andrew Sullivan is wrong about something.

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                        Originally posted by Bruno
                        True story, I met with one of my undergraduate advisees yesterday, he needing advice about his choice of major, cognitive psychology. At one point he asked if I'd heard of Jordan Peterson and I think I gave an expressionless "sure." The student had read "12 Rules" and said it had changed his life.
                        Really? Fuck me, he must have led a sheltered life. Still, if he likes that kind of trite bollocks, get him to listen to this - it'll probably blow his head off.

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                          I want to be in another time zone altogether when JP fills the 3 arena in Dublin this summer. A million man march of entitlement and beard oil through town, group whines from the fuckers with the keys to the kingdom. Definitely the week to go abroad.

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                            https://twitter.com/deep_beige/status/979808130480697344

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                              Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
                              I want to be in another time zone altogether when JP fills the 3 arena in Dublin this summer. A million man march of entitlement and beard oil through town, group whines from the fuckers with the keys to the kingdom. Definitely the week to go abroad.
                              Bloody hell Lang,didn't hear about that,thankfully I'm on leave that week so if not a different timezone I'll definitely be in another country

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                                The Reich article is interesting.

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                                  Reich's article doesn't really say anything controversial. Race is a social construct rather than a reflection of a biological reality and genetic research regularly undermines and disproves scientific racism. Genetic variation across the spectrum of humanity is actually really small. Certain populations have higher instances of certain genotypes/phenotypes but those differences are far less than individual variation. People sometimes get a bit prickly about this stuff because of the way pseudoscience around genetics was used to justify all those genocides.

                                  It would have been better for him not to talk about "new orthodoxies" tbqh cos it all sounds a bit Sp!ked. Given it's being used by racists to justify racist pseudo-science, it seems ill-advised.

                                  His clarification here is useful

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                                    Maybe it's time for you to rehabilitate Houston Stewart Chamberlain.

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                                      https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/wor...mpression=true

                                      This is pretty fair.

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                                        He's now doing some kind of staged debate at the 20,000 capacity O2 Arena in July. I'm not familiar with opponent Sam Harris but the moderator is OTF favourite Douglas Murray. Not one to rank alongside Prince or Leonard Cohen in the venue's short but storied history.

                                        Feeling slightly old because I can remember when Timothy Leary and G Gordon Liddy used to bicker onstage for cash.

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                                          Originally posted by Benjm View Post
                                          He's now doing some kind of staged debate at the 20,000 capacity O2 Arena in July. I'm not familiar with opponent Sam Harris but the moderator is OTF favourite Douglas Murray. Not one to rank alongside Prince or Leonard Cohen in the venue's short but storied history.

                                          Feeling slightly old because I can remember when Timothy Leary and G Gordon Liddy used to bicker onstage for cash.
                                          Sam Harris is a neuroscientist who rose to prominence as one of the "new atheists". Since then he's been a frequent apologist and cheerleader for imperialist mass murder, and a more occasional apologist for fascism. He's also an anti-feminist (or instrumentalises the persecution of women in the global south to minimise the oppression western women face) and his anti-Islam rhetoric frequently tends toward the genocidal.

                                          He also got his arse handed to him by Chomsky once, then posted the transcript cos he thought it made him look good. He particularly likes to come up with thought experiments where the "moral" thing to do is massacre muslims and then hide behind the "oh it was a thought experiment".

                                          Oh, and he's recently been trying to rehabilitate scientific racism as a field.

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                                            I'm doing some work developing a curriculum for this place in London. The guy who hired me as a consultant to create and write the whole thing just sent me a video to check out (as he obviously thought it would be interesting to me and possibly useful for the course).

                                            Fucking Jordan Peterson.

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                                              Originally posted by Bizarre Löw Triangle View Post
                                              Sam Harris is a...
                                              Thanks BLT.

                                              This O2 event is essentially just a massive stroke off for the 'thinking the truths that others are afraid of, cos I'm ace' set by the look of it.

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                                                “A self help book for arseholes"
                                                Last edited by Nefertiti2; 06-04-2018, 11:14.

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                                                  https://johannesburgreviewofbooks.co...ules-for-life/


                                                  This review burns with righteous fire. It’s fucking brilliant. Though I’m sure I’ll be told soon enough it’s a disgraceful ad hominem hatchet job, quoting the last Reasonable Man out of context, ascribing sinister motives where there are none.

                                                  Cos of course he’s not a reactionary wank that lucked out and is now all about the ego and the money, naah. He’s a liberal, before that term got tainted by these mysterious undefinable (but they exist!) post modern marxists.

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