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Lobster Boy (was: This Jordan Peterson Guy)

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    Number 11: He is afraid of rude teens.

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      You seem to keep coming back to this idea that racists and reactionaries in poor, run down working class communities are terribly upset by academia self-imposing standards of behaviour. That they vote for Trump instead of Hillary Clinton, who they'd have absolutely loved to have voted for if only they didn't have this feeling that the coastal academic elites have been trying to bring "PC" policies into universities. And this makes them feel that "liberals" have been nagging them to be less racist, less sexist, less homophobic, and less like arseholes, and they hate this so much that they're going to vote for the most racist arsehole they can find.

      This seems like all kinds of spectacular crap on so many levels; and in particularly it looks like an argument to never actually try and improve discourse, to never try and push back against the racists and the transphobes.

      There are a bunch of reasons that people in rust belt cities voted for Trump, but I think vanishingly small amounts of those reasons are because academics are trying to stop racist discourse.

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        Are universities run by the left, or is that simply a measure of the degree to which anyone that doesn't follow the modern, insane, right wing counterfactual orthodoxy is left wing. These people would describe angela merkel as being left wing, and Angela Merkel isn't left wing. A lot of this PC stuff simply comes down to having manners in a modern reality that is a little bit more complicated than the past. It's just good manners to refer to a trangender person by the pronouns they would prefer. That's only political in that it is simple good manners that follows from accepting that Transgender people are now a normal thing in the 21st century, and merit the same respect and consideration you should give other people.
        Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 19-03-2018, 18:55.

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          Well, that's a separate issue, of course. The focus on the relatively small number of working class white voters in medium sized towns in Ohio and Pennsylvania who voted for Trump rather than the tens of millions of wealthy, white, small business owning (or regular job holding) people with perfectly good educations who always vote Republican and refused to change despite their candidate being a fucking maniac...

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            But they're not "anti-PC". They are, mostly, racists. Getting upset that you can't call a spade a spade anymore is mostly just being upset because your racism is being pointed out to you. So, the question is, should we not point out when people are being racist? Because then they might get upset and vote the wrong way?

            Also, I'm pretty sure that not a single one of these crazy conservative relatives changed their vote because of the way safe spaces are created on campuses or because Milo was no-platformed at Berkeley. I'm pretty sure that not a single one of them cares about UC Berkeley except as some kind of parodic vision from the late 60s. They were always going to vote for whichever Republican candidate was on offer, even if every single one of the liberal coastal elites completely shut up and said nothing for 2 years.

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              I don't think anyone on the left is being alienated by being told to not use racist or homophobic or transphobic language. Anyone who's "alienated" by that is someone who wants to use racist or homophobic or transphobic language. And they were never anywhere near the left (in the modern sense). They might have voted FDR in the past, but in the last half century they've not been of the left.

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                Pankaj Mishra contextualizes Peterson as one in a long line of fascist-friendly modern mystification professionals.

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                  Originally posted by Bruno
                  I'm not talking about how you need to behave in order not to swing enough voters in specific areas to tip an election. I'm just talking about something that does alienate people from the left.
                  Well a lot of people aren't having a great time, and the American left seems to consist of the Democrats, who are utterly useless and don't do anything for them, but they see them "doing things" for these people, but are unaware that the left isn't doing anything for them either, they're doing it for themselves and the Democrats are tagging along afterwards. So they've essentially decided to do things for themselves by voting for a white supremacists who also wants to go back to some Happy Days vision of the fifties, where everyone was happy, and Multiculturalism meant the Fonz.

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                    Oh, I'm sure that Trump voters think the world has gotten too PC. I just don't think that they're people that you could have persuaded in the first place.

                    You are definitely pushing the line that "too much PC" is driving people into the arms of the Trumpists. And I think firstly, that it's nonsense. But also, I don't know what the alternative is - should we really just let people continue to use non-PC language without mentioning it, allow them to continue their verbal attacks on real people, because of the risk that it will put their backs up?

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                      They think the world is "too PC" because their newspapers or TV channels tell them that it is. If you asked most of them for an example they'd genuinely struggle (apart from the minority who'd tell you "you can't say nigger any more")

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                        But we don't know what they think. They were asked "do you think things are too PC?" or however the question was phrased and many of them said yes. It's meaningless.

                        If they'd been asked "name some things that bother you" and a significant number had said PC, then I'd think it meant something

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                          Originally posted by Bruno
                          It's much broader than racism alone, and racism itself doesn't have a crystal clear definition or set of manifestations that everyone can agree on. This isn't only about how you see and label people, it's about how they see themselves. How you try to correct them matters politically because it matters rhetorically.

                          Watch the panel. If it seems like all bullshit to you, fine. I'm not claiming to be omniscent about this, since I basically just have access to anecdotes. One of the panelists does mention a poll that found that the second most reliable indicator for whether someone voted for Trump was an affirmative answer to the question of whether the country had gotten "too PC." The most reliable indicator being party affiliation.
                          Seriously, any panel chaired by Brendan O’Neill should be automatically treated as suspect. No agenda from Institute of Ideas/Spiked dangerous bastards at all. I’ve had it up to here with Pinker and his lovely hair as well.
                          Last edited by Lang Spoon; 19-03-2018, 23:48.

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                            Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
                            Well a lot of people aren't having a great time.
                            Too true. A lot of people are angry. In fact there's more unresolved anger about these days, on a personal and collective level, than at any time in my memory. It's on on the right, the left, among blacks, whites, reds, blues, purples; males, females and everyone else who self identifies as something else. Right now it often seems that rage is the only thing we all have in common and, assuredly, that's not healthy on any level. Yes, I'm stating the obvious, but once in a while it needs to be done. If only to remind ourselves that everyone of us emerged from our Mother's womb and as individuals we have far more that binds us than separates us.

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                              What do you want from this thread, Bruno? This is now getting very circular and samey. It really is taking on the Reasonable mule obstinate character of a Change My Mind YouTube thing.

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                                Originally posted by Bruno
                                Shrug. People think what they think. If you're convinced they're a lost cause and that overreach on the left doesn't exist, there's nothing else to say.
                                They're definitely a lost cause. People don't change their mind about this sort of thing. They certainly didn't think their way into their positions. They just eventually die, and progress arises from the next generation being more used to the change.

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                                  No I disagree. I think most people go through a process after which they kind of get used to things. I bet my parents grew up believing homosexuality was deviant, but I have no doubt they would be completely fine if any of their grandchildren turned out to be gay

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                                    Originally posted by Amor de Cosmos View Post
                                    Too true. A lot of people are angry. In fact there's more unresolved anger about these days, on a personal and collective level, than at any time in my memory. It's on on the right, the left, among blacks, whites, reds, blues, purples; males, females and everyone else who self identifies as something else. Right now it often seems that rage is the only thing we all have in common and, assuredly, that's not healthy on any level. Yes, I'm stating the obvious, but once in a while it needs to be done. If only to remind ourselves that everyone of us emerged from our Mother's womb and as individuals we have far more that binds us than separates us.
                                    Alienation, innit?

                                    Lately I think we’d all be happier living in small villages of thatched huts, etc.

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                                      I really don't know. But it's so widespread I doubt a single factor is at work. Fear, uncertainty, loss of control of one's life, (perceived or otherwise) lack of faith in humanity, and a thousand other things that spring from all that. In the last fifty years we've moved from a facile belief that "Love is all We Need" to an all too real acceptance that pointing fingers of hatred at someone else is going to solve our problems. It doesn't.

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                                        Originally posted by Bruno
                                        Everyone I know has crazyconservative relatives on their FB feeds and they're not all living in rust belt shanty towns. The anti PC movement seems big.
                                        That's not anything approaching an argument.

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                                          In the last fifty years we've moved from a facile belief that "Love is all We Need"
                                          I don't believe that the white guys here ascribed to that.



                                          Nor do I believe that the people that spat on me when I was a poll watcher for McGovern did so.

                                          I'm not convinced that attitudes have hardened as much as our awareness of said attitudes.

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                                            Originally posted by ad hoc View Post
                                            No I disagree. I think most people go through a process after which they kind of get used to things. I bet my parents grew up believing homosexuality was deviant, but I have no doubt they would be completely fine if any of their grandchildren turned out to be gay

                                            Same-sex sexual activity wasn't decriminalised in Ireland until 1993. The first marriage ceremonies of same-sex couples occurred on 17 November 2015. 25 years later Ireland has an out gay Taoiseach.

                                            Nobody cares any more (apart from people who watch Jordan Peterson videos).
                                            Last edited by Nefertiti2; 19-03-2018, 22:42.

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                                              Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                                              I don't believe that the white guys here ascribed to that.



                                              Nor do I believe that the people that spat on me when I was a poll watcher for McGovern did so.

                                              I'm not convinced that attitudes have hardened as much as our awareness of said attitudes.
                                              Possibly not, but the collective zeigeist certainly feels different, and not in a good way. It may be true that we are more aware today. Or that many people then were aware but more tolerant, or — conversely — more intimidated. Of course I'm definitely checking my privilege when I say that, I speak only from my own experience, and my sense of others I know well. There are other factors though. The scale and and speed at which information and misinformation travels. The lack of privacy. A sense of disembodiment in our personal interactions. All these are disorienting and, in the long term, serve to separate rather than unify I feel. But I honestly don't know that. I just wish I felt better about the condition of road I've been traveling on for seventy years than I did when I stepped out on it. But I don't.

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                                                I suspect that I might be outing myself as a weirdo here, but I fundamentally disagree with HP and Amor's premise. As far as I can tell, the world - as a whole - is getting better. It's getting way better. Sure, there's shit along the way, and there are people and events that disrupt that progress. But 2017 is a hell of a lot better than 1997 was, which is itself a hell of a lot better than 1977 (I don't go back before then). Certainly in the western world, we're way more tolerant as a whole than we were back then. And that's in part because we remind people when they're not being tolerant - basically, being "PC" (which, as far as I can tell, just means being polite), has been a big part of that progress.

                                                And it's not just tolerance where we've moved on massively. Of course people are far healthier, far longer. There are (despite obvious outliers) way fewer wars, way fewer famines, way fewer massive outbreaks of disease than there used to be, even in the relatively recent past.

                                                The modern world is flawed, of course. But it's better than every previous iteration. And it's getting better, man. We don't need to listen to nutters like Peterson who want to bring back some primitive archetype where men were in charge because they were strong, and where strength was the fundamental defining principle of everything.

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                                                  I'm not claiming worse or better, only different, and largely subjectively so. I'm too close to my time and place to attempt much else I think. But, with that caveat I return to my original point, these are angry times, angrier than any I've experienced to date. Perhaps necessary ones as UA implies, but they don't feel good.

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                                                    I completely agree with that and also with the conclusion of your earlier post (though I’m not yet as worried about a nuclear holocaust as I was in the 60s).

                                                    And we are all creatures of our time and place. I would posit that one factor that influences my view significantly is that Manhattan has become less politically diverse over the course of my life. If we lived on Staten Island, my experience would be different. Never having been on Facebook also seems to have been a positive thing, though our extended family strikes me as being more politically homogenous than those of most posters, likely because we just haven’t been in this country that long and because the family placed a huge premium on education above virtually all else.

                                                    At the same time, I don’t think that SB is necessarily wrong, though I am seriously disquieted by his not recalling life before my second year at university.

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