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2018 Copa Libertadores

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    #51
    I can safely say this was the first time I had a student who missed class to attend a Libertadores knockout game in the Bombanera while also seeing my daughter's classmate on tv for the Cerro Porteño match vs Big Phil's Palmeiras tonight.

    Unfortunately haven't had the chance to see many Argentinian matches since 2002, but this Racing-River had ALMOST the same vibe as that 2001 Apertura classic.

    I just pray Cerro doesn't win, because they're already shooting off tons of fireworks and I need to wake up early tomorrow.

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      #52
      There was a crucial not missing in my last post on the previous page. I am not backing Racing. Still not after that first leg. River really should be favourites with eleven men at home.

      Atlético Tucumán's win over Atlético Nacional was remarkable, not least for looking so comfortable. It would be brilliant if they could reach the quarters.

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        #53
        Independiente scrape through...

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          #54
          Bizarrely, Conmebol allowed Carlos Sanchez to play in last night's match. Conmebol's communication is a shambles. You'd have thought that could devise a system which informs clubs which players are ineligible. The same could be said for the administrative procedures of Brazilian clubs. It shouldn't' have been beyond the capabilities of Santos to check whether Sanchez, a Uruguayan who had previously played for River Plate in the Libertadores, was eligible or not, especially as Chapecoense were eliminated last year for the same reason. It doesn't help Brazilian feelings of paranoia that it's Argentinian clubs that usually seem to benefit. The Chileans Temuco were also victims in the Copa Sudamericana this year as their victory at San Lorenzo was turned into a 3-0 defeat.

          Fortunately, there was also a proper game last night as holders Grêmio survived with an added time winner (and equaliser on aggregate) against Estudiantes and went through on penalties. A pulsating game and the Libertadores at its best.

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            #55
            Originally posted by cantagalo View Post

            Fortunately, there was also a proper game last night as holders Grêmio survived with an added time winner (and equaliser on aggregate) against Estudiantes and went through on penalties. A pulsating game and the Libertadores at its best.
            I would argue the Santos fans breaking seats and throwing them along with taking on the Choque Troops was the Libertadores at its best as well.

            But yes, what an ending.

            I was really looking forward to this Racing-River as I was for Michael Spinks vs Mike Tyson. It's going the same way as well.

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              #56
              River rolls.

              Colo Colo hands one to Core Enn Chas.

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                #57
                Football gods showed no mercy with respect to Racing's stupid kits.

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                  #58
                  FUGGGGGGGGIINNN AAAWWWEEESSSOOOMMMEEEE

                  The two Colo Colinos I saw getting busted for drugs at the Congonhas Airport must be going nuts in their Sao Paulo jailcell.

                  1-1 (2-1 Colo Colinos.)

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                    #59
                    Originally posted by cantagalo View Post
                    Bizarrely, Conmebol allowed Carlos Sanchez to play in last night's match. Conmebol's communication is a shambles. You'd have thought that could devise a system which informs clubs which players are ineligible. The same could be said for the administrative procedures of Brazilian clubs. It shouldn't' have been beyond the capabilities of Santos to check whether Sanchez, a Uruguayan who had previously played for River Plate in the Libertadores, was eligible or not, especially as Chapecoense were eliminated last year for the same reason. It doesn't help Brazilian feelings of paranoia that it's Argentinian clubs that usually seem to benefit. The Chileans Temuco were also victims in the Copa Sudamericana this year as their victory at San Lorenzo was turned into a 3-0 defeat.

                    Fortunately, there was also a proper game last night as holders Grêmio survived with an added time winner (and equaliser on aggregate) against Estudiantes and went through on penalties. A pulsating game and the Libertadores at its best.
                    *Frowns, holds bridge of nose, takes deep inward breath*

                    Okay. With apologies, cantagalo, if you already know this, I'm going to take those bits in bold in order. I've seen a fair bit on Twitter over the last few days suggesting (and outright saying, in the case of some Brazilian users) that the Brazilian press have been pretty bad at actually explaining what went on here, and that that's fed into the sense of resentment Santos have felt (a sense which I think is not entirely unjustified, for what it's worth). But if you know this, there'll be others here who don't, so:

                    First bolded bit: Sánchez was allowed to play on Tuesday because having ruled the first leg null and void, and having awarded Independiente a walkover, CONMEBOL decreed that his suspension had therefore been served in that match, and he is now free to play.

                    Second bolded bit: CONMEBOL have devised such a system. They launched it in 2016. It is called COMET. It's what Santos used to check Sánchez's eligibility (this was what that screenshot they put out was of). It was meant to be foolproof and prevent precisely this sort of thing from happening. In designing it to be foolproof CONMEBOL reckoned without ... um, themselves. For some reason, Sánchez's suspension was listed on COMET, but was specifically listed as having expired in May this year. In other words CONMEBOL's own system, which they tell the clubs to check in order to prevent accidental use of suspended players, didn't just have no record; it actually stated that his suspension had been served/expired.

                    Third bolded bit: Santos did check, to what I would say was the maximum extent they should reasonably have been expected to do so.

                    So, just judging the Santos/Sánchez case on its own merits, I think Santos were quite hard done by. I can't really see how they were to blame.

                    The added spice, of course, is that River Plate have had a similar situation with their midfielder Bruno Zuculini. They signed him at the start of the year, along with Juan Fernando Quintero, Franco Armani and Lucas Pratto. He's been in the squad (signing his name on the teamsheet, which is all that matters for CONMEBOL disciplinary purposes whether he gets on the pitch or not) for all River's Libertadores games this year, until tonight. And after the Sánchez thing blew up last week an eagle-eyed Racing fan spotted on a CONMEBOL paper that got put out on Twitter that he too has had a suspension hanging over him the whole time. All of River's opponents in the groups, and Racing in the first leg of the last sixteen tie, failed to raise a complaint about this within 24 hours of the final whistle, which is CONMEBOL's deadline for teams who want to claim a walkover (Independiente were within this deadline for their appeal over Sánchez). All the same, CONMEBOL have the right to act on their own initiative if they see fit, and they did in this case. But River hadn't checked COMET (or maybe they did, but they hadn't only checked COMET); they'd also, in an act which seems like massive overkill verging on paranoia at the time, but which now looks like a stroke of genius, written a letter to CONMEBOL in February, asking specifically if any of their new signings plus Ignacio Fernández (who they knew to be suspended) had any suspensions hanging over them. They received a written, signed reply confirming that of the players River had listed, only Fernández was suspended. And when you've got a written and signed statement from CONMEBOL saying x, it's rather harder for CONMEBOL to then turn round six months later and go 'actually y, and it's entirely your fault'. So CONMEBOL had to announce that Zuculini now has to serve his two-match suspension (the first was tonight, the second will be the first leg of the quarter-final), and leave the first leg result untouched.

                    All of that fed into Santos' sense that it's one rule for the Argentines and another for everyone else, even though the situations aren't the same (just very similar).

                    Boca Juniors are now making a big hoo-hah (or were, 24 hours ago) about checking in writing with CONMEBOL whether they can play Ramón Ábila in their second leg against Libertad on Thursday, or whether he's suspended for it. They've little reason to think he would be suspended, and it seems as if they're just doing it to play to the gallery (Boca's president really is that sort of person), but I don't really disagree with them doing so. If I were president of a South American football club involved in continental competition, then starting last week I would be taking the River Plate Total Overkill approach and writing to CONMEBOL for written and signed confirmation of suspensions (or lack thereof) for my players ahead of every match from now on. Just ignore COMET. If you can consult CONMEBOL's own system and still have a walkover given against you after fielding a player that system says is free to play, then why trust it? Why trust them not to have marked a suspension against a player who's never picked up a booking in his career? Just write a letter every time. And continue to do so until they cave in and say, 'Okay you know what? From now on what COMET says goes. The onus is on us to make sure our lists are accurate.'

                    The one saving grace is that over the two legs it would be extremely hard to suggest Independiente weren't the better team. But of course, that second leg performance was helped enormously by being given a 3-0 advantage they might have deserved but hadn't actually earned from the first leg.

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                      #60
                      Oh, and just to add to the bit about folk from elsewhere feeling like it's one rule for Argentine clubs and another for everyone else, that thing with Ábila and Boca playing to the gallery is because Boca fans are now convinced it's one rule for River and everyone else. This Zuculini thing is Exhibit B. Exhibit A is ... Boca being expelled from the 2015 Copa Libertadores after one of their barra bravas pepper-sprayed River's players as they came out for the second half of the round of sixteen second leg that year. Yes, there are Boca fans (a lot of them, actually) who still think the club were hard done by with that decision.

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                        #61
                        Originally posted by jason voorhees View Post
                        I would argue the Santos fans breaking seats and throwing them along with taking on the Choque Troops was the Libertadores at its best as well.
                        Oh yes, so would I. Certainly more entertaining than either of the games.

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                          #62
                          Thanks for that, Sam. To be honest I just couldn’t be bothered to investigate as closely as you. The same shit keeps happening year after year and I’m at the stage of thinking ‘Fuck em all’.

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                            #63
                            Literal GOL (GASP OUT LOUD)

                            I'll say one thing about the P-guyans having been on the receiving end, they can be some absolutely cheeky motherfuckers when it comes to finishing close ones.

                            One guy realized I was timing shots up close (they wind up the shot, I crouch, they shoot, I pounce.) So he wound up the shot...then....didn't shoot. I got loose on my crouch, stood up a little, and as I was standing up he did a little toe poke like that one. I ended up punching it into my own net from how discombobulated it made me.

                            Libertad 1-0 Boca Juniors 11 Min

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                              #64
                              Two Boca goals in a minute, as the Paraguyan defence takes the club's name much too literally

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                                #65
                                Aaaaaannnnnddddddd that's the end of that. As you were.

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                                  #66
                                  This past June, Paraguay celebrated their first beatified nun at the Cerro Porteño Stadium. The lady's brain hadn't decayed yet, so they declared that a miracle. She needs one more attributed miracle to be a saint. Should Cerro Porteño get the goal to tie this at 2-2 and somehow win it after the early red card and early 2nd half goal, I would say that would be enough for Saint Chiquitunga.

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                                    #67
                                    Wow. Never saw a red card for WWFing and amping the crowd up after getting flipped like a pancake.

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                                      #68
                                      Can't tell how many cards are being given out. Absolutely insane scenes.

                                      #16 Deyverson got flipped NFL style on a tackle. He gets up and starts amping up the crowd. (Having been in the stadium last week, that place is LOUD with it half-full.)

                                      A ball gets thrown near his face, and he takes a dive that the ball was thrown in his face. The ref comes over and he gets right up and starts amping up the crowd again (stomping, chest out, waving arms up and down.) A Cerro player shoulder-blocks him. He gets up to amp the crowd again, then gets a red. Then starts crying.

                                      There was already 8 minutes of injury time, there may be 12 minutes on top of the 8 minutes. I think a Cerro played for a red, but now the OLEs are starting for Palmerias keeping possession with 9 players.
                                      Last edited by jason voorhees; 31-08-2018, 02:45.

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                                        #69
                                        Game, and Big Phil goes NUTZ.

                                        The ref is anxiously looking for Choque Troops.

                                        I shudder to think what Mrs Nati (insane Cerro fan) is doing in her house during the red rain part of the game.

                                        Palmeiras v Colo Colo should be DOPE.

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                                          #70
                                          Sorry, Sister C

                                          That was farcical even by Libertadores standards.

                                          At least we now known that Fox’s extra time indicator can display double digits when needed.

                                          I hope Colo Colo beat them like a drum.

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                                            #71
                                            Delfino lost the game as soon as he cocked up Felipe Luis's red card three minutes in. The timewasting at the end was performance art, even by Libertadores standards.

                                            You've got to hand it to Boca as well, handing out a thrashing like that in spite of barely starting to play football at any point during the match. Libertad were poor, though. Cruzeiro will be an interesting challenge.

                                            Had Estudiantes hung on for thirty seconds longer, we'd have five quarter-finalists from one country for the first time ever, and a guaranteed Argentine finalist. As it is, Grêmio are the only non-Argentine club in that half of the draw, and Argentina have four quarter-finalists for the first time (Brazil have previous managed this on three occasions).

                                            Independiente v River Plate (first leg in Avellaneda, second in Belgrano)
                                            Atlético Tucumán v Grêmio (first leg in San Martín de Tucumán, second in Porto Alegre)
                                            Colo Colo v Palmeiras (first leg in Santiago de Chile, second in São Paulo)
                                            Boca Juniors v Cruzeiro (first leg in Buenos Aires, second in Belo Horizonte)

                                            First legs between the 18th and 20th September; second legs between the 2nd and 4th October.

                                            I'm going to be in England for both legs of both semis, and the first leg of the final. Good thing I'm used to late nights ...

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                                              #72
                                              Actually no, I'm going to be in Amsterdam for one of the semi-final second legs. Bollocks. Hope it's the non-Argentine one.

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                                                #73
                                                With a 2-0 lead for Palmeiras from the away leg, I thought I could safely go to bed early last night and avoid staying up till 4am. I’ve just watched some extended highlights and it looks like I missed all the fun; two red cards, an ambulance on the pitch, skulduggery involving the ballboys and 11 minutes of added time.

                                                I obviously reckoned without the pantomime villain that is Felipe Melo; booked after 3 minutes and sent off after 5 once the ref realised what damage he’d done to Caceres’ left leg. Palmeiras really do have a high twat quotient. I could have predicted that Deyverson would be the other Palmeirense to get red-carded. Four weeks ago he made history by becoming the first player to be sent off by VAR in Brazil after elbowing a Bahia player in the face in a Copa do Brasil match. He burst into tears then as well. Then there’s Dudu who could start a fight in an empty room and I’m going to add goalkeeper Weverton to the list of twats after he charged into a Cerro forward and collapsed pretending he was the victim. Now with the arrival of Felipão, recently appointed after they harshly sacked Roger Machado, one of Brazil’s brighter young managers, you have the makings of a perfect twatstorm.

                                                Palmeiras have the most expensively assembled and deepest squad in Brazil and I think they’ll be too strong for Colo Colo. They are a far better team than Corinthians. We can only hope that Cruzeiro or Boca see them off in the semi-final. I don’t want to see Scolari adding a third Libertadores to his long list of titles.
                                                Last edited by cantagalo; 31-08-2018, 07:13.

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                                                  #74
                                                  At this point I am just hoping we avoid a final with two teams from the same nation. Hoping a side can upset the Argentine/Brasil dominance is a big ask. Colo Colo isn't that good, although maybe they'll get some wind in their sails with that victory.

                                                  I had been looking for Palmeiras to win this one given their depth, but I'm not a Big Phil fan at all. At this point in the tournament, Boca-Cruzeiro would be deserving of meeting in the final so I'm hoping we see an exciting 1/4 final. The only other matchup that intrigues me (unless Colo Colo can show they truly belong in the final) is River-Gremio.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #75
                                                    Originally posted by danielmak View Post
                                                    At this point I am just hoping we avoid a final with two teams from the same nation.
                                                    If the semi-finalists are two Brazilian and two Argentine clubs don't they fix the semi final draw to ensure just that?

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