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2018 Copa Libertadores

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    #26
    It's probably hard to call a loss in Bolivia an upset given altitude but I would certainly categorize the Atl Nacional loss a bit of a shocker. Not as bad as Deflin beating Colo Colo in Santiago, though.

    Santos does keep plugging along. Given the lack of offensive prowess in this competition and in the Paulista it's hard to see them getting very far. The week was hit and miss for me with all three sides I try to follow ending up with draws. Santa Fe was probably the only positive result away to River. I haven't see any of River's league games, but they have looked poor in the Libertadores. Nacional drawing at Garcilaso was a major disappointment. And U de Chile drawing against a high-energy Racing was ok. That game certainly could have gone either way.

    This week is mostly Sudamericana but one big game with Palmerias-Boca. I expect Palmeiras to do the business in this one, but it will certainly be a test. And we will see if Palmeiras recovers from a chaotic Paulista final. What's the story with that penalty decision, cantagalo? I saw the game and could not see how a fourth official standing so far away is influencing the ref. The replays showed that it wasn't a penalty since the ball was already far enough away that the contact didn't merit a penalty. But, again, I can't see how the fourth official is making that call.

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      #27
      Indeed. The referee had a better view of the tackle than the fourth official but got the decision wrong. It was a fair tackle on Dudu by Ralf and the correct decision should have been a corner.

      So the referee was right to reverse his call but the controversy is about allegations of ‘external interference’ i.e the use of video evidence in a match without VAR. This clip appears to show a FIFTH official who had presumably seen a replay of the incident, running from the halfway line to inform the fourth official that the original decision was wrong.

      http://www.esporteinterativo.com.br/...ra-o-palmeiras

      It is not the first time the issue of ‘external interference’ has caused problems. There were a couple of similar incidents last season, one notably in a Fla-Flu game. Each time there was massive brawl on the pitch and a long delay in getting the match restarted. It’s an issue that needs sorting out, though I’m not sure how it should be done. How important is it to get the right decision, even if it is by the ‘wrong’ method?

      Comment


        #28
        Originally posted by cantagalo View Post
        I’m not sure how it should be done. How important is it to get the right decision, even if it is by the ‘wrong’ method?
        GolTV USA uses an English feed provided by Globo. The announcers noted during the 8-minute delay that VAR would have sorted it. Although VAR wasn't an option here, it went to a vote in the league. Basically the CBF wanted to implement VAR but only if each club paid to provide the needed cameras, which is a joke. The clubs voted by a narrow margin against using VAR, which really came down to cost. Of interest related to the Paulista final, one of the clubs voted for VAR and one against in terms of the league. I can't remember which. I agree it was the right call, but the problem is how that comes about. You can't have a fifth official looking at video if that's not part of the deal. In that instance I'd rather see the wrong call made rather than some random luck of the draw when the fifth official happens to see a screen.

        Many people seem to hate VAR but every instance except one that has happened in a game I was watching turned out to be correct. The one incorrect version in my mind was from the Club World Cup when a Japanese player boxed out an Atl Nacional player and then that Atl Nacional player knocked the Japanese player over (can't remember the Japanese side). I think the VAR folks just looked at the foul, but it was impossible to avoid the foul if the guy is running in front of a natural path of another player; the foul was basically manufactured. Anyway, other uses all made sense to me.

        Comment


          #29
          Palmeiras-Boca finished 1-1 and certainly didn't live up to expectations (expectations resulting from two recent champions facing off, expectations resulting from this being the only Libertadores game this week--kind of a marquee match by scheduling quirk, and expectation emerging from a relatively recent history of these two clubs playing for titles or the advancement to a final round). Palmeiras certainly missed more quality scoring chances. I expected them to not only win, but win big. And that is why I never mess around with weekly football picks.

          I never started a 2018 Sudamericana thread since I know there tends to be less interest around here for that competition during the first two rounds but we have some big clubs entering this week (either big because they have won a lot of titles or big in that the clubs tend to fall just below duopolies in their respective leagues). Dep Cali crushed Danubio 3-0 and tonight San Lorenzo hosted Atl Mineiro. I'm only 20 minutes into this one so don't have much more to add beyond highlighting that these two relatively recent Libertadores winners are facing off.

          Comment


            #30
            Yes we had to wait till the final few minutes for some goal action and both came from individual errors. Worth mentioning that Keno’s goal was equalised by a certain Carlitos Tévez.

            I think we might as well keep the Sudamericana action here for now. I know you love the early rounds Daniel but it’s not just me who’s underwhelmed. A friend sent me a picture of her in a Fluminense shirt with a background of deserted seats at the Maracanã before their match against Real Potosi. I said she must have arrived early but it was five minutes before kick-off. The eventual attendance - 6892.

            Comment


              #31
              Originally posted by cantagalo View Post
              I think we might as well keep the Sudamericana action here for now. I know you love the early rounds Daniel but it’s not just me who’s underwhelmed. A friend sent me a picture of her in a Fluminense shirt with a background of deserted seats at the Maracanã before their match against Real Potosi. I said she must have arrived early but it was five minutes before kick-off. The eventual attendance - 6892.
              I watched the first half of that match before going to sleep last night and the second half this morning. The TV shots of the Maracana showed a mostly empty side. I'm guessing a huge percentage of that 6K were sitting in the curvas.

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                #32
                Not surprised you fell asleep. My friend tells me Flu improved in the second half after Abel made some tactical changes. They may need those three goals at altitude in the return leg.

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                  #33
                  Maybe it's just that fans in Brazil are jaded since Sol de America packed the house. Haha.

                  Atletico PR destroyed Newell's tonight (3-0 with all 3 scored in the first half). Sol de America won at home easily against DIM. There was a really nice free kick taken in this game, where a Sol player moved along the front of the wall and the shot went around the last man on the wall, with the Sol player basically stopping the wall from moving further out. The highlight is a little fast but worth checking out:
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smGuG-YAuhY

                  I'm only 25 minutes into Audax-Botafogo and not much to report. I'll get to the Sao Paulo game later tonight if I'm up late enough.

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                    #34
                    Newell’s were truly Nuls tonight.

                    It was embarrassing

                    Comment


                      #35
                      Newell's are a completely different team to that which – with Maxi Rodríguez and Nacho Scocco in attack, and young Nehuén Paz anchoring the defence – qualified for this competition.
                      They were gutted by their lack of finances.

                      Originally posted by danielmak View Post
                      Palmeiras-Boca ... two recent champions facing off
                      I don't think we can have that. Boca's last Libertadores title was eleven years ago, which could be 'recent' at a stretch, I suppose ... but Palmeiras have won the thing once, in 1999! Over ten per cent of the entire history of football since the drawing up of the Cambridge Rules has happened since then. Evair, who scored their opening goal in the second leg, is now 53 (admittedly he was already a veteran then, but this is a stat which appears to lend weight to my contention that it was bloody ages ago, so it's staying in this post).

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                        #36
                        Daniel’s posts must have finally had an effect on me - I also watched the Atlético-PR v Newells game and it certainly was a comprehensive victory.

                        Atlético’s new manager Fernando Diniz is an interesting character. His career so far has been with clubs in the lower reaches of Paulista football. His main claim to fame was finishing runner-up to Santos in the 2016 Paulista with Audax-SP and he spent 2017 with Oeste in Série B.

                        He is unusual in that he is just about the only manager in Brazil who is playing a short-passing possession-based game played from the back with a ball-playing keeper and full-backs using the full width of the pitch. Guilherme’s goal involved 10 players and 28 passes. Even given NOB’s limitations, I was very impressed with Atlético last night. I’m looking forward to seeing more of Atlético this season - the Brasileirão starts tomorrow - and it’s probably a vain hope but I’d love to see him given a reasonable amount of time to develop the team. It’s about time someone tried to bring Brazilian club football into the 21st century.
                        Last edited by cantagalo; 13-04-2018, 15:07.

                        Comment


                          #37
                          @Sam: I was referencing winning their respective leagues, not the Libertadores.

                          Central-Sao Paulo was played before a high energy crowd without the quality of play to match. And Botafogo comes from behind to beat Audax away. They should be set in the second leg of this one, whereas that Sao Paulo-Central tie is up for grabs.

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                            #38
                            Originally posted by danielmak View Post
                            @Sam: I was referencing winning their respective leagues, not the Libertadores.
                            Ah! Sorry.

                            Comment


                              #39
                              Originally posted by cantagalo View Post
                              Daniel’s posts must have finally had an effect on me - I also watched the Atlético-PR v Newells game and it certainly was a comprehensive victory.

                              Atlético’s new manager Fernando Diniz is an interesting character. His career so far has been with clubs in the lower reaches of Paulista football. His main claim to fame was finishing runner-up to Santos in the 2016 Paulista with Audax-SP and he spent 2017 with Oeste in Série B.

                              He is unusual in that he is just about the only manager in Brazil who is playing a short-passing possession-based game played from the back with a ball-playing keeper and full-backs using the full width of the pitch. Guilherme’s goal involved 10 players and 28 passes. Even given NOB’s limitations, I was very impressed with Atlético last night. I’m looking forward to seeing more of Atlético this season - the Brasileirão starts tomorrow - and it’s probably a vain hope but I’d love to see him given a reasonable amount of time to develop the team. It’s about time someone tried to bring Brazilian club football into the 21st century.
                              Tim Vickery has just done an article on Diniz and Atlético who were very impressive in their 5-1 opening day win over Chapecoense.

                              http://amp.timeinc.net/worldsoccer/n...mpression=true

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                                #40
                                As the group stage has reached the halfway mark, it’s time to stop hijacking the thread to feed my Atlético-PR and Fernando Diniz obsession (btw they knocked São Paulo out if the Copa do Brasil last night).

                                Libertad of Paraguay are the only team with a 100% record after beating Peñarol 2-1. Monagas are pointless. Alianza Lima and Vasco are goalless. Vasco’s 4-0 humiliation at Racing could have been even worse if Lisandro Lopez hadn’t had two penalties saved. He was foolish enough/ had the bottle to take a third one which he thankfully scored, thus avoiding emulating Martin Palermo. Cruzeiro’s draw at Universidad de Chile doesn’t do much for their chances either and the two Brazilian clubs look like being eliminated from Group 5.

                                Corinthians won at Independiente thanks to Jadson and are yet to concede a goal while Grêmio ground out a 0-0 at Cerro Porteño who still lead Group 1. Another home draw behind closed doors at the Maracanã for Flamengo against Santa Fé, though they did manage to attract nearly 50,000 for their training session the day before. They are level on 5 points with River Plate who won 1-0 at Emelec, the highlights coming from one of the highest camera positions I’ve ever witnessed.

                                The Strongest’s home defeat to Túcuman was their first since 2013 when they lost to Atlético Mineiro - who went on to win the tournament.

                                Comment


                                  #41
                                  I think this round will be big for some of the mid-table sides in various groups to tease out the proverbial contenders from the pretenders. Sides like Tucuman, Penarol, Santa Fe, and Emelec are going to need to do better than 1 point (esp. Santa Fe, who seem to be the draw kings).

                                  I haven't seen enough of Vasco outside the Libertadores but expect that they should be done. Racing is flying high. And so it will be interesting to see if U de Chile can get out of this funk that began with a brutal home defeat to a poor and old Colo Colo side while Cruzeiro tries to get going. I like Menezes and was surprised he didn't do better with the national team. I think his appointment came at the wrong time. What's your opinion of him, cantagalo? I'm hoping he can't get them going so La U get through, but I have a feeling the Chileans will be dropping to the Sudamericana (although I expect the final places after Racing to be decided after MD6).

                                  Comment


                                    #42
                                    Mano Menezes is struggling at Cruzeiro. The football is dour and absurdly over-cautious, a good example being their visit to U de Chile when, needing a win, his 4-5-1 formation ended up effectively as a 4-6-0 as his ‘striker’ was midfielder Thiago Neves. Brazilian fans will tolerate this, but only if the team is winning. They did narrowly win the Mineiro but defeats in their first two league games (the second against a Fluminense down to 10 men for 70 minutes) mean that his job is now under threat. If they don’t beat U de Chile this Thursday he could be gone.

                                    If he survives, try to catch their next Copa do Brasil game against Atlético-PR and compare his style of play with that of Fernando Diniz.

                                    Comment


                                      #43
                                      You know how I was saying in my previous post that Mano Menezes had lost the plot........Cruzeiro 7 Universidad de Chile 0. OK it helped that Chilean football is currently in an enormous slump and that La U played with 9 men for nearly half the game but they were already 3 down by then. Thiago Neves got his first Libertadores goals since 2008 when he scored a hat-trick in the final for Flu against LDU.

                                      Vasco just about kept their hopes alive coming back to draw against Racing with 10 men. Another goal for Sam’s prospect Lautoro Martinez. A unusual sight just before half time when the Racing players ran to the touchline and threw bottles of water to their supporters who were being pepper-sprayed by the Polícia Militar. Talking of Argentinians called Martinez, I very much liked the River Plate Martinez goal against Emelec.

                                      A big win for Palmeiras at Boca. Lucas Lima finally had a decent game and the excellent Keno, surprisingly with a header, was also on the scoresheet. It could have been different if Ábila hadn’t missed a chance from almost on the goal-line. Also qualified for the knock-out phase are Santos after their 2-0 win over Estudiantes. The only 100% record has gone with Libertad’s defeat to Peñarol.

                                      Comment


                                        #44
                                        I was stunned by Nacional's 4-goal output. Granted, the win was against Garcilaso but I can't remember when I last saw Nacional score this many goals. Although I haven't done a firm count, I would speculate that the 4 goals in this game exceeds the tally of goals in all of their games up to this one, which includes qualifying rounds.

                                        La U looked horrible. They were two down very quickly. But the red cards sealed a brutal scoreline. The thing that drives me nuts is the ref allowing Alves' penalty to stand. He ran up, ran back, ran up and shot. There is no way that is a legal penalty. And that penalty certainly linked to one of the red cards because yellow cards were issued for arguing with the ref about allowing that goal to stand.

                                        Comment


                                          #45
                                          I have to confess that I’m completely confused about the current rules relating to the ‘paradinha’. Seven or eight years ago it was very common in Brazilian club football and used to great effect by Neymar and many others. Then it was banned but in the last couple of seasons it has reappeared and players have been getting away with it again. Sassá’s penalty was as blatant an example as you could wish to see so it looks like it’s become de facto legal in Libertadores as well as Brazilian football.

                                          As you said though, La U were very poor. Just what is happening with Chilean football?

                                          Comment


                                            #46
                                            I think La U's keeper needed to just run out once the backwards steps happened. Ideally he would have saved the penalty. The ref would have ruled a re-take and that would have been the time to argue against that move. I don't know if the ref would have done anything about the move but at least the move would have been called into question.

                                            I can't remember if I mentioned this podcast before ( https://soundcloud.com/world-football-index ) but the South American episodes usually focus on the Libertadores. One of the regular contributors is Adam Brandon, who has published some pieces about Chilean football in WSC. He is an English guy who lives in Chile and he regularly talks about the radical dip in quality there. I think the sense was that Colo Colo was going to challenge this year because they have the best of the local talent but they just look old and are not even leading the league. I don't follow youth set-ups (I don't even follow transfers that closely) so I can't say what's happening in Chile right now but in the last decade we've seen two high points: Colo Colo in 2006 and 2007 (a side that featured many of the players that did well in the 2007 U-20 WC and would later feature in the Copa America winning sides) and then the 2011 Sudamericana winning La U side (which was quickly undone by player sales). Beyond that, there haven't been many Chilean challengers in the final rounds of either continental tournament. And it looks like the national team is about to suffer given he age of the European players and the lack of emerging young talent.

                                            I haven't checked the standings in the past few weeks but last I saw Catolica was leading the league but that might just be a product of not competing in the Libertadores or Sudamericana; they only have domestic football to focus their attention. If they hold on, I assume by next season they will have lost their best players and will suffer in the Libertadores.
                                            Last edited by danielmak; 29-04-2018, 01:13.

                                            Comment


                                              #47
                                              I get a bit confused when there’s Round 5 games played at the same time as Round 4 games are finishing. Anyway, still in Round 4 Grêmio thrashed the previously unbeaten Cerro Porteño 5-0 to take the lead in Group 1. They again looked formidable and are following the same strategy as last year in resting players to prioritise the Libertadores. It could well work again but it’s frustrating to see them sabotage their chances of the Brazilian title when they are clearly far better than rivals such as Corinthians.

                                              Palmeiras are following the opposite strategy by resting players for their trip to Alianza Lima. Of course they’d already qualified and it didn’t do them any harm as they ran out 3-1 winners and currently have the best record of all 32 teams.

                                              Since my criticism of Mano Menezes, Cruzeiro have gone goal crazy but it should be borne in mind that their 4-0 win was at Vasco. Pundits are debating whether they are the worst Brazilian team ever to enter the Libertadores and their defeat caused predictable fan unrest inside and outside the São Januário with one of ex-President Eurico Miranda’s bodyguards threatening protestors with a gun.

                                              As for the Argentinians, Boca escaped elimination with a late equaliser at Junior and River did Flamengo a favour by beating Santa Fe. Sam may correct me but I think Racing and Independiente look the strongest of the Argentinians. Racing predictably beat U de Chile while Independiente reaped the reward of attacking Corinthians from the start and coming away with an impressive 2-1 win.

                                              Comment


                                                #48
                                                Maybe Menezes was reading this thread and wanted to prove a point. Haha. But they are certainly goal crazy right now. Vasco has been bad in the group stage but other than almost letting the lead slip away at Wilstermann, they did the business in the qualifying stages. I know the competition at that time was nowhere near what they have faced in the group stage but a team can only play the teams that they are matched against.

                                                Independiente looked really good against Corinthians but this is a team that lacks goal scoring punch. We've seen it in the Libertadores and in the Recopa, which was not the case last year. Sam can say more about why that might be and if the problem exists in the league. But I agree that they could do something; they have experience winning a continental title last year. Racing for me has been the class side from Argentina, but they were also the best Argentine side coming out of the group stage a few years back and lost steam in the knock-out rounds. River lifted the trophy that year. Of course, what happened in 2015 really has no link to 2018 given the shifts in South America.

                                                For me, the best news was Nacional beating Santos. Nacional looked good in this one; team defense was excellent and the goal was really nice. Santos was in good shape and I don't know that side well enough to know if they rested a lot of players. I fear that Nacional's draw in Peru will be their undoing since they now need a draw or a win at Estudiantes. And Estudiantes has been very good at home.

                                                There's not much to say about the other sides I try to follow: Santa Fe and U de Chile. The former lacks any kind of offensive punch and the latter is coming out of bad stretch. Losing 1-0 seems good but a few weeks back this was the side that was looking good for the next round.

                                                It's hard not to see Palmeiras as a favorite given their depth but the WC is going to create a huge gap in the flow of this competition and I think we'll have to see what the squads look like after that break. Still, it's hard to see Palmeiras being gutted to the point of being an also-rand.

                                                Comment


                                                  #49
                                                  It was more injuries than resting players that weakened Santos at Nacional. An interesting sideshow of that game was the duel between Rodrygo and Nacional full-back Fucile who, having been nutmegged three times by him, admitted he injured him as it was the only way of taking him out of the game.

                                                  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1kxOeI6iNJw

                                                  Comment


                                                    #50
                                                    Boca's equaliser was in the 50th minute.

                                                    River have improved a lot (domestically especially) since those disappointing first two group matches, and with Armani in goal I think they can challenge again. Independiente are good to watch and highly creative but have massive problems finishing their chances – that's a problem that's been going on since the start of the domestic season in Argentina, and which they just overcame for the Copa Sudamericana semis and final before a return to their habit of leaving the barn door very much un-hit in the new year.

                                                    And I'm going to back Racing as potential winners, because fantastic though they are to watch, it's Racing. (Also Lautaro Martínez is on his way in a few weeks' time, which will be a huge blow.)

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