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The Etymology Of Problematic Words

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    The Etymology Of Problematic Words

    EDIT: Removed
    Last edited by Johnny Velvet; 05-11-2021, 15:59.

    #2
    More recently, "British Isles" seems more common in the English media, incl at the BBC/Graun/Indy end of the spectrum. Is it just blissful ignorance of Irish feelings, or more sinister?

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      #3
      Originally posted by Duncan Gardner View Post
      More recently, "British Isles" seems more common in the English media, incl at the BBC/Graun/Indy end of the spectrum. Is it just blissful ignorance of Irish feelings, or more sinister?
      Trouble is "Western European Archipelgio" could be mistaken to mean "The Western Isles".

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        #4
        Originally posted by Duncan Gardner View Post
        More recently, "British Isles" seems more common in the English media, incl at the BBC/Graun/Indy end of the spectrum. Is it just blissful ignorance of Irish feelings, or more sinister?
        Disappointing from the Guardian, given what their style guide has to say on the matter:
        The phrase is best avoided, given its (understandable) unpopularity in the Irish Republic. Alternatives adopted by some publications are British and Irish Isles or simply Britain and Ireland

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          #5
          What's wrong with "Celtic Isles"?

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            #6
            It's too wide-rangering

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              #7
              I know!

              Let's ask Donald Trump for a description!

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                #8
                Donald was really thinking of punitive tariffs on Teheran- a Shi'a Toll

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                  #9
                  I never use 'oriental' in English because I'm now aware it's a problematic term, but I too was surprised to discover this as the same word is widely used in French with no such connotations, generally as a synonym for 'eastern' e.g. Pyrénées Orientales and the like.

                  I also had to tell my mam (whose English is not all that, to be fair) not to use the word 'paki', which she had assumed to be as anodyne as 'Brit' or 'Scot'.
                  Last edited by Fussbudget; 18-01-2018, 12:49. Reason: Typo central in here

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                    #10
                    To be fair to Mme La Budget, 'Paki' is widely used in some variants of English eg in Australia

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                      #11
                      Fair enough, I didn't realise that! Not so good in London where we were at the time though.

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                        #12
                        I don't think that's true DG. I don't know any Australians who would use that word. Maybe 30 years ago. Same goes for the equally unpleasant "Lebo"

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                          #13
                          On “Oriental”, has there been any serious campaign to rename the SOAS?

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by Duncan Gardner View Post
                            To be fair to Mme La Budget, 'Paki' is widely used in some variants of English eg in Australia
                            Certainly used by many from that ethnic community to this day, or abbreviated further to Pak(s) and jokingly by Indians.
                            Don't like it myself, as associate with generic racism from 30-40 years ago...despite having Muslim heritage.

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by imp View Post
                              What's wrong with "Celtic Isles"?

                              A certain poster is highly, er, 'Timphobic'...

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                                #16
                                Isn't/wasn't 'the Pale' used in Russia regarding where Jewish people could settle? Is that a translation or just using an existing english word for something similar in concept?

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                                  #17
                                  I was only made aware maybe 8 or 9 years ago that Oriental was problematic. This is, I still don't know why it is.

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                                    #18
                                    Some Celtic isles, yesterday:

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                                      #19
                                      Yes, though the Russian, Ukrainian and Yiddish terms were quite different

                                      Calais has one roughly similar to that in Ireland

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                                        #20
                                        I got a lecture once for using 'rule of thumb' in a sentence.

                                        "You know, that comes from back in Victorian times when you could beat your wife, but only with a switch that was no thicker than your thumb."

                                        "So....every time I use that phrase, some Victorian woman gets beaten or something?"

                                        "Well no, but....you should just be aware."

                                        "Okay."

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                                          #21
                                          Last time I looked into that phrase, it was disputed as to whether that was the case. It may well tbe an urban myth. Some detailed but inconclusive discussion here

                                          https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/rule-of-thumb.html

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                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Reginald Christ
                                            An old teacher of mine used to use the phrase "North Atlantic Islands" but none of us had the geographical knowledge at the time to suggest to him that could have potentially meant anything from the Azores to the Faroes.



                                            To my shame, I'm guilty of this. As recently as a few years ago I was (innocently, I must protest) still using the term "Oriental" to refer to people from East Asia. I was genuinely unaware it's now considered an offensive term. Not having any friends from that part of the world probably didn't help.
                                            Oriental City was until it closed down a few years ago the name of a large shopping centre in Colindale, north London. As far as I know it was either Japanese or Chinese owned and had previously been called Yaohan Plaza.

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                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Fussbudget View Post
                                              I never use 'oriental' in English because I'm now aware it's a problematic term, but I too was surprised to discover this as the same word is widely used in French with no such connotations, generally as a synonym for 'eastern' e.g. Pyrénées Orientales and the like.

                                              I also had to tell my mam (whose English is not all that, to be fair) not to use the word 'paki', which she had assumed to be as anodyne as 'Brit' or 'Scot'.
                                              I was in Liverpool saturday, with a bunch of lads from the old country. One of them, not someone know for being a racist type, loudly said the work "paki" when talking about food, whilst discussing in French. I was glad there was no asian people in the street at that time...

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                                                #24
                                                British people at the Tory end of the spectrum tend to lecture me on "British Isles" being purely a geographical name, and not a political one.

                                                But there's no difference between a geographical name and a political name, is there? All names for regions on this Earth were all given by certain groups of people and not necessarily with the consent of all people in that region ("King of the Britons? Who are the Britons?"). So all names of all regions are, by their very nature, inherently political.

                                                Even longitude could be construed as political, because zero longitude is defined as going through Greenwich.... which was decided on a vote amongst powerful countries, with the French abstaining.

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                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by antoine polus View Post
                                                  British people at the Tory end of the spectrum tend to lecture me on "British Isles" being purely a geographical name, and not a political one.
                                                  Hahaha. Oh wow. Nice try, British people at the Tory end of the spectrum. See also the Sea of Japan/East Sea/Korean East Sea, here.

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