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    #51
    Agree - it largely comes across as lazy, sensationalist conjecture at this point.

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      #52
      DG it's one thing for arlene foster to refuse to meet Simon Coveney, because he has no business interfering in northern ireland's internal affairs, at least that is internally consistent. There's a problem with the internal consistency of someone from a nationalist background (which takes as its premise that we are all one people) and chiding people in the south for not caring enough, (So far so good) but you can't then get upset if someone who does care about the situation from the south writing a song about it. I can think of many legitimate reasons why people in the north might be pissed off at people from the south, and our desire to not think about northern Ireland, or our unwillingness to engage, but this sort of thing doesn't help.

      there are lots of legitimate reasons for not liking Zombie, I mean, I don't particularly like it. It doesn't sound very nice. It is the sine qua non of 90's guitar music, the gap between its ubiquity and it's quality made it the anti get lucky, etc. But not liking it because a) the singer wasn't from around here, or b) it's written to please americans aren't good ones. the first one we dealt with, and if the second was ever something that they thought about, she wouldn't have sounded like a female Rubber Bandit.

      I mean I'm from 40 miles down the road and it took me a long time to figure out what She's singing in this song. They may as well have been a foreign language band in the US half the time.

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        #53
        Originally posted by antoine polus View Post
        Grunge tribute song Zombie was a bit rubbish, but after to listening to their debut Everybody Else is Doing It, so Why Can't We? again, I am convinced that it is the best album to ever come out of the Republic of Ireland. It has aged extremely well.
        It's a great grunge tribute song...the sharp, sad guitar-plucking bit, then GRUNGGRUNGEGRUNGEGRUNGEGRUNGE then the sad lyrics and vocals and more sad guitar and then GRUNGEGRUNGEGRUNGEGRUNGEGRUNGE. It's the song the Pixies would have written if they were much sadder and hadn't been to university to learn irony and drugs and being clever. It makes me think of Doc Martens and video stores and listening to cassettes in the car stuffed with kids just enjoying the freedom of driving around and amazing (but not really) girls with oversized sweaters and hoop tights and having to go to the library to learn anything but never quite finding what you want to and the smell of cigarettes and wet paper everywhere.... The 90's man. The 90's! IT was OUR TIME and it was SHIT, but it was OUR SHIT...the kids today with their snappychat and ipods and whatnot just don't get it. CASSETTES, for fuck sake.

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          #54
          Glorious. It's the Cassettes that tips it over the edge.

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            #55
            Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
            arlene foster blah blah blah
            Her mandate doesn't include any pretensions to great art, last time I looked

            you can't then get upset if someone who does care about the situation from the south writing a song about it. I can think of many legitimate reasons why people in the north might be pissed off at people from the south, and our desire to not think about northern Ireland, or our unwillingness to engage, but this sort of thing doesn't help
            Did you miss what I wrote or just not understand it? To recap

            - I've no real problem with outsiders writing bland, generalised pop songs about NI. They may even as in this case offer some comfort to the bereaved

            - I'm suggesting that neither you, I, DOR nor anyone else has any inherent advantage in doing so just because you grew up near Stab City or had a SF intern stay at yer Ma's B & B. It's lazy rank-pulling as I suggested

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              #56
              I have no idea what you're talking about DG. I was talking about that tweet that E10 rifle posted. There are bits of that discussion that don't really have much to do with the cranberries or that song in particular.

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                #57
                I was replying to your post addressed to me. As I made clear above, I agreed in part with you and not with E10's mate. Anyone can comment, no-one should pull rank as you then did both for yourself and on DOR's behalf. She and her music are incidental

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                  #58
                  Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
                  Glorious. It's the Cassettes that tips it over the edge.
                  Kids today are getting back into them. It's hipster nonsense, right up there with claiming Pabst is good beer, or going apple-picking for fun, or artisanal ice cubes.

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                    #59
                    First I’ve heard about the ice cubes. Useless generation, dumb flag scum

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                      #60
                      Originally posted by Hot Pepsi View Post
                      Kids today are getting back into them.
                      Not at all. But it's the sort of thing you really can't argue. "Pipe smoking? Kids are getting back into it." "Phrenology? Kids are ....etc"

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                        #61
                        Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
                        First I’ve heard about the ice cubes. Useless generation, dumb flag scum

                        Raw water, innit?

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                          #62
                          Originally posted by WOM View Post
                          Not at all. But it's the sort of thing you really can't argue. "Pipe smoking? Kids are getting back into it." "Phrenology? Kids are ....etc"
                          Yeah, well, not many kids, I guess, aren't I old enough to generalize about all the kids based on something I heard once from an unreliable source?

                          https://www.fastcompany.com/3067073/...-is-paying-off

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                            #63
                            Originally posted by Hot Pepsi View Post
                            Yeah, well, not many kids, I guess, aren't I old enough to generalize about all the kids based on something I heard once from an unreliable source?
                            Sure...why not. Most stuff I tell people is just stuff I heard from you. "Oh, Reed says all the kids in PA. are doing it..." Etc. Who's to know.

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                              #64
                              If the Collective just started posting absolute bollocks it’d still be months before I would stop confidently citing his posts as Authoritative.

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                                #65
                                Originally posted by Jah Womble View Post
                                No idea. What's the cut-off age for using expressions like 'monged'?
                                Oof! Bantz away! But if you really want an answer: Never. It's one of my favourite words, so why should I stop using it? What word for monged are hip-slinging young music hacks using these days, daddio?

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                                  #66
                                  From outside the mainstream media, another take on Zombie.

                                  Don't believe the forcefed narratives, sheeple.

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                                    #67
                                    The fuck? It was better than Sunday Bloody Sunday only coz it’s not got Bono in it. And even he couldn’t bring peace with his 80’s warbling.

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                                      #68
                                      Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
                                      First I’ve heard about the ice cubes. Useless generation, dumb flag scum
                                      http://www.motherjones.com/environme...raft-cocktail/

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                                        #69
                                        Dundee Utd fans chose to sing Zombie at Rangers shortly after the 'new club' was formed and we played them in the cup. It went on for much of the match, which we won fairly comfortably and appeared to rile their fans up a great deal. I was amazed at how many people knew the words, but I guess the chorus is fairly clear.

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                                          #70
                                          Originally posted by imp View Post
                                          Oof! Bantz away! But if you really want an answer: Never. It's one of my favourite words, so why should I stop using it? What word for monged are hip-slinging young music hacks using these days, daddio?
                                          How about Paki? is Paki cool? Because "Monged" (slang, offensive
                                          under the influence of drugs
                                          Collins English Dictionary. Word origin of 'monged' C20: from a shortening of mongol is just as fucking offensive.

                                          Even if it was once cool for elderly rock journalists I suggest they learn to do better. however many brain cells they have missing. If someone used it in one of your football matches you'd give them the red card.

                                          The OXford dictionary:


                                          The term mongol was adopted in the late 19th century to refer to a person with Down's syndrome, owing to the similarity of some of the physical symptoms of the disorder with the normal facial characteristics of East Asian people. In modern English this use is now unacceptable and considered offensive. It has been replaced in scientific as well as in most general contexts by the term Down's syndrome (first recorded in the early 1960s)
                                          Last edited by Nefertiti2; 17-01-2018, 23:42.

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                                            #71
                                            Ah, have to admit I'd never associated 'monged' with 'mongol'. in fact I'd never thought about the origin of the word at all. Count me as duly corrected, politically (once you've got off your usual high horse).

                                            Edit: adding an apology to Jah Womble. I wrongly took your comment as picking me up for using an outmoded term.
                                            Last edited by imp; 18-01-2018, 06:38.

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                                              #72
                                              Appreciated

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                                                #73
                                                Originally posted by imp View Post
                                                Ah, have to admit I'd never associated 'monged' with 'mongol'. in fact I'd never thought about the origin of the word at all. Count me as duly corrected, politically (once you've got off your usual high horse).

                                                Edit: adding an apology to Jah Womble. I wrongly took your comment as picking me up for using an outmoded term.
                                                Accepted, and I can see that from your response, but I really don't get the general continued acceptance of the use of this expression. Perhaps some people really don't know what it means, or indeed are aware of its derivation (as vehemently expressed by Nef above) - which seems pretty obvious to me.

                                                I'm not trying to come across as 'holier than thou', but a former user of this forum regularly uses the term on Facebook posts, always garnering delighted 'likes' from other respected and supposedly-right-on OTF types. Which personally I find very hypocritical and offensive.

                                                No, I've not been brave enough to point this out yet. More shame me.

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                                                  #74
                                                  "Mong" is really astonishing in the way ut manages to be doubly offensive- Firstly in its referencing of people with Downs and secondly in how the original term "Mongoloid" or even "Mongolian idiocy" was a cod scientific attempt to racialise their otherness.

                                                  This Wikipedia article is a brief history

                                                  he term Mongolian idiocy and similar terms have been used to refer to a specific type of mental deficiency associated with the genetic disorder now more commonly referred to as Down syndrome. The use of these terms has largely been abandoned because of their offensive and misleading implications about those with the disorder.

                                                  English physician John Langdon Down first characterized the syndrome that now bears his name as a separate form of mental disability in 1862, and in a more widely published report in 1866.[1][2][3] Due to his perception that children with Down syndrome shared facial similarities with the populations that Johann Friedrich Blumenbach described as the "Mongolian race", Down used the term mongoloid.[4][5] Mongolism and its Pathology was the title used by W. Bertram Hill for a published study in 1908[6] and the term mongolism was used by psychiatrist and geneticist Lionel Penrose as late as 1961.

                                                  The racist connotations of the term were both popularized and exacerbated by F. G. Crookshank in a long-discredited work of scientific racism entitled The Mongol in our Midst first published in 1924.

                                                  In 1961, a prestigious group of genetic experts wrote a joint letter to the medical journal The Lancet which read:

                                                  It has long been recognised that the terms Mongolian Idiocy, Mongolism, Mongoloid, etc. as applied to a specific type of mental deficiency have misleading connotations. The importance of this anomaly among Europeans and their descendants is not related to the segregation of genes derived from Asians; its appearance among members of Asian populations suggests such ambiguous designations as 'Mongol Mongoloid'; increasing participation of Chinese and Japanese in investigation of the condition imposes on them the use of an embarrassing term. We urge, therefore, that the expressions which imply a racial aspect of the condition be no longer used. Some of the undersigned are inclined to replace the term Mongolism by such designations as 'Langdon Down Anomaly', or 'Down's Syndrome or Anomaly', or 'Congenital Acromicria'. Several of us believe that this is an appropriate time to introduce the term 'Trisomy 21 Anomaly', which would include cases of simple Trisomy as well as translocations. It is hoped that agreement on a specific phrase will soon crystallise once the term 'Mongolism' has been abandoned.[5][7][8][9]

                                                  The World Health Organization (WHO) resolved to abandon the term in 1965 at the request of the Mongolian People's Republic.[8] Despite several decades of inaction and resistance, the term thereafter began to fade from use, in favor of the term such as Down's Syndrome, Down syndrome and Trisomy 21 disorder. Steven J. Gould reported in 1980 that the term "mongolism" still remained in common use in the United States, despite its being "defamatory" and "wrong on all counts".[10] In the 21st century, all the older terms are considered unacceptable in the English-speaking world, are no longer in common use, and have been largely forgotten.[11] In French, mongolisme is still in common use in the media to refer to Down syndrome,[12][13] and mongol and mongolien are still used as ableist slurs.[14][15]
                                                  "Mong" is much used by Arsenal fans of a certain generation who think Arsenal should never have left Highbury...

                                                  imp I appreciate that "monged" is different from "mong" if you don't make the connection to the initial derivation. I'm sure you didn't because otherwise you wouldn't use the term.
                                                  Last edited by Nefertiti2; 18-01-2018, 10:14.

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                                                    #75
                                                    I think a few of these terms are like that, and the key is to let people know when they use them (as here). I've called a few people out on using "gypped" for "conned", for example, and I 100% believe that they had no idea where the term came from. Indeed it was on OTF that I learned where the expression "beyond the pale" came from.

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