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Racist bullying at Chelsea

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    #26
    Berba
    There wasn't that much money in football in the 80s. Footballers still didn't cost much and you didn't have to pay them much money so there wasn't a massive amount of money saving for bringing through players.


    heh, I'm making the blunder of thinking that there actually was a point to clubs having youth teams back in the day, other than to give some crony cunt something to do. English football has always been terrible for this sort of thing,

    I was listening to Herman Ouseley and Gareth Crooks talking about this sort of thing. They were pointing out that the situation in English Youth Football had changed substantially, as a result of two key structural reforms. The First was the professionalization of the Academy system, whereby coaches were hired on the basis of their qualifications, combined with the Rooney rule, which meant that they had to interview at least one black candidate. Because Appointments are increasingly made on the basis of the best person for the job, and coaching ability is unrelated to skin colour, the proportion of black coaches was quickly heading for the proportion of black footballers, and even higher, because.....

    the Issue remains that at senior level, you neither have the Rooney rule, or the Professionalization of coaching. Every time a manager is appointed, he brings in all his mates to do the coaching, and as for the rooney rule, there often isn't even an interview. Essentially getting your foot on the ladder of first team coaching requires you to be buddies with a manager, and that's where the problem arises. They were very insistent that this is a structural problem, that needs to be addressed structurally, rather than just tutting at individual stories that come out while ignoring the root issues.

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      #27
      Emile Heskey.

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        #28
        Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
        Berba
        There wasn't that much money in football in the 80s. Footballers still didn't cost much and you didn't have to pay them much money so there wasn't a massive amount of money saving for bringing through players.


        heh, I'm making the blunder of thinking that there actually was a point to clubs having youth teams back in the day, other than to give some crony cunt something to do. English football has always been terrible for this sort of thing,

        I was listening to Herman Ouseley and Gareth Crooks talking about this sort of thing. They were pointing out that the situation in English Youth Football had changed substantially, as a result of two key structural reforms. The First was the professionalization of the Academy system, whereby coaches were hired on the basis of their qualifications, combined with the Rooney rule, which meant that they had to interview at least one black candidate. Because Appointments are increasingly made on the basis of the best person for the job, and coaching ability is unrelated to skin colour, the proportion of black coaches was quickly heading for the proportion of black footballers, and even higher, because.....

        the Issue remains that at senior level, you neither have the Rooney rule, or the Professionalization of coaching. Every time a manager is appointed, he brings in all his mates to do the coaching, and as for the rooney rule, there often isn't even an interview. Essentially getting your foot on the ladder of first team coaching requires you to be buddies with a manager, and that's where the problem arises. They were very insistent that this is a structural problem, that needs to be addressed structurally, rather than just tutting at individual stories that come out while ignoring the root issues.
        Sorry, I am really struggling to understand your post here. And the bits I understand do not make sense.

        The Rooney rule (where implemented) is relatively recent so would have no effect until the current incumbents have left their posts and need replacing. additionally, it remains to be seen if it will be properly implemented or just a token gesture.

        The academy coaching system and many clubs are staffed by ex-club "stalwarts" and heroes as a sort of retirement present/PR exercise. Obviously as time has passed, more and more of such people are black.

        The academy system has only really been professionalised at the top Premier League clubs where they have brought in foreign Academy directors. Everywhere else is more or less the same with shiny new buildings and a couple of 4G pitches.

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          #29
          Howard Gayle
          https://www.theguardian.com/football...-was-difficult

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            #30
            Interview with Dave Hill, who wrote Out Of His Skin on John Barnes and racism:

            https://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2012/...-in-liverpool/

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              #31
              Originally posted by Tactical Genius View Post
              A few responses,
              "Indeed, the Beardsley thing is surprising to me, too: I mean, it may have been a misinterpretation of his comment, but it strikes me as a poor turn of phrase on his part either way up"

              It is really these kind of comments that saddens me. Call a spade a spade (sic) and trying to excuse such comments allows these people to continue in their roles and maintain their ignorant attitudes.
              I can assure you that there was no 'excusing' of the comment at all, not on my part: more that I was so shocked that somebody of Beardsley's apparent stature and experience might say such a thing that I was trying to find any logical reason behind it - which is not the same thing at all. It was a stupid comment whichever way one looks at it.
              Last edited by Jah Womble; 15-01-2018, 10:27.

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                #32
                Nathan Blake subject of alleged racist abuse as youth player at Chelsea - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/wales/42751820

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                  #33
                  Chelsea's academy was notorious at this time for failing to provide any sort of decent prospect apart from John Terry, about whom the less said the better. And for a London club, their record of bringing black players through to the first team was very poor - Michael Duberry, Leon Knight and Carlton Cole are the only three that spring to mind from the period under discussion.

                  As a sports reporter in Doncaster in the mid 70s, my father was tasked with interviewing local boy made good Rix, who had just broken through at Arsenal, and found him incredibly rude and ignorant, even for a footballer.

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                    #34
                    Originally posted by Jah Womble View Post
                    I can assure you that there was no 'excusing' of the comment at all, not on my part: more that I was so shocked that somebody of Beardsley's apparent stature and experience might say such a thing that I was trying to find any logical reason behind it - which is not the same thing at all. It was a stupid comment whichever way one looks at it.
                    Please compare your response on the Beardsley comments and your response to Phil Neville.

                    Both comments are blatant in their ism's (as far as i am concerned) and i would like to understand your thinking about why you would give Beardsley the benefit of the doubt and not Neville?

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                      #35
                      For the nth time - I am not giving Beardsley 'the benefit of the doubt'. Please do not put words into my mouth.

                      His line was something like 'I thought you lot would be good at this', yes? While that is of course deeply suspect, it isn't as blatant as anything Neville has tweeted. Think in terms of how these comments might stack up in court: it's a stretch, but Beardsley (or a representative) debatably 'could' try and argue a way out of his comment - Neville really could not. ('As far as I'm concerned' isn't going to cut it in such a situation.)

                      Just to be clear, I'm not defending anybody's behaviour here.

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                        #36
                        Originally posted by Jah Womble View Post
                        For the nth time - I am not giving Beardsley 'the benefit of the doubt'. Please do not put words into my mouth.

                        His line was something like 'I thought you lot would be good at this', yes? While that is of course deeply suspect, it isn't as blatant as anything Neville has tweeted. Think in terms of how these comments might stack up in court: it's a stretch, but Beardsley (or a representative) debatably 'could' try and argue a way out of his comment - Neville really could not. ('As far as I'm concerned' isn't going to cut it in such a situation.)

                        Just to be clear, I'm not defending anybody's behaviour here.
                        You classify the comments as deeply suspect rather than blatantly racist. To make things easier lets break the comments down into its constituent parts and implications and please point out to me at which stage things become ambiguous and open to reasonable interpretation.

                        "You lot" - According to the allegation he was specifically refering to the black players and not the group at large.

                        "Should be good at this" (A climbing exercise).

                        Implication 1 Black players = Monkeys
                        Implication 2 Being Monkeys should excel at climbing exercises.

                        Calling black people Monkeys is a common racial slur for black people and any kind of analogy between black people and monkeys will be perceived as racist and this is something any right thinking person would be expected to understand (See the H&M ad or the Feed the Monkey controversy with Roy Hodgson).



                        Also it is for the 2nd time not the nth time....

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                          #37
                          Well the benefit of the doubt is a tricky beast. He claims he was referring to all the players, certain black players claim he was referring to them.

                          One thing is fairly certain though, a fringe player at a premier league club is going to think fucking long and hard before accusing their club legend reserve team manager of something like this. You'd want to be a spectacular footballer to be confident that this wouldn't fuck up your career, or make you unemployable when you fall down the leagues. If a professional footballer makes a complaint like this, they are not a "Snowflake" that has been "Triggered" by an accidental formulation of words. These are people in an incredibly abrasive and abusive competitive environment, making a serious complaint against the man who has the power of life or death over their career, fully aware of the likely impact that it will have on their career. And if it actually was an accidental formulation of words, what else had happened to lead those involved to come to their conclusions, or to take action?

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                            #38
                            Yeah, I'd agree with that. I've been subject to nationality discrimination in hiring multiple times and haven't gotten the job. Yet if I were to haul the fuckers in front of an EU employment tribunal I probably wouldn't win and I'd be a marked man for the rest of my days.

                            So these people are potentially putting their careers at risk by speaking truth to power.

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                              #39
                              Originally posted by Tactical Genius View Post
                              You classify the comments as deeply suspect rather than blatantly racist. To make things easier lets break the comments down into its constituent parts and implications and please point out to me at which stage things become ambiguous and open to reasonable interpretation.

                              "You lot" - According to the allegation he was specifically refering to the black players and not the group at large.

                              "Should be good at this" (A climbing exercise).

                              Implication 1 Black players = Monkeys
                              Implication 2 Being Monkeys should excel at climbing exercises.

                              Calling black people Monkeys is a common racial slur for black people and any kind of analogy between black people and monkeys will be perceived as racist and this is something any right thinking person would be expected to understand (See the H&M ad or the Feed the Monkey controversy with Roy Hodgson).



                              Also it is for the 2nd time not the nth time....
                              I grew up in the seventies,TG - I know all too well what that slur represents.

                              All I'm doing is offering you a hypothesis, not a get-out-of-jail card to Beardsley: I'm in no doubt whatsoever that it looks pretty bloody grim whichever way you view it, but (unlike Hodgson) he didn't actually say 'you monkeys', did he? That, I'm afraid, is where any perceived grey area will emerge.

                              You've used the word 'implication' here yourself - 'implying' something, no matter how broadly, still isn't spelling it out.

                              I don't make the rules here and I'm not excusing anyone - I'm just pointing out what may prove a fairly obvious difficulty with this.

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                                #40
                                Ok

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                                  #41
                                  It would be interesting to know how many clubs booked Bernard Manning or his equivalents for socials in the 90s, whereupon he would pick on the black players. As for the 80s, recall, for example, Barrymore being allowed to black up as John Barnes on the BBC in 1984.

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                                    #42
                                    Originally posted by Tactical Genius View Post
                                    Calling black people Monkeys is a common racial slur for black people and any kind of analogy between black people and monkeys will be perceived as racist and this is something any right thinking person would be expected to understand (See the H&M ad or the Feed the Monkey controversy with Roy Hodgson).
                                    As Berbaslug has said, the Beardsley thing seems to be a pretty clear case of casual racism.

                                    A senior kicker journalist got himself in some hot water in Germany recently by describing the Aubameyang saga as an "Affenzirkus", or "monkey circus". He and he magazine were quick to issue a clarification and apology. The term has no intrinsic racial connotation and has been part of Germany's vocabulary for very many decades. Germans use the word "Affe" (monkey) as a teasing term of affection for somebody who acts up a bit, and even as a term of endearment. I call my son a "monkey" sometimes. And they use it to describe crazy situations, like a monkey circus. Because monkeys are cute and crazy.

                                    But at football grounds in the '70s and '80s (and, presumably beyond), black players -- then usually the some of black US soldiers -- were sometimes abused with monkey sounds and banana references. It wasn't as widespread or aggressive as it was in Britain, but it existed. So the racist monkey implications aren't foreign to Germany.

                                    The journalist surely intended no racial slur by using an age-old term to describe the Aubameyang situation. He can be accused, however, of gross insensitivity in failing to make that connection. As a journalist he should know the weight of words.

                                    On the other hand, his failure to connect the derogatory use of the word monkey with a black player also indicates a naivety about racial slurs; that journalist is likely as unracist as you like, to the point of not being able to spot a potential racial insult when he sees one.

                                    So if, say, Jürgen Klopp were to use the word "monkey" in relation to black players, culturally he likely would not intend to issue a racial slur (though one would expect him to be conscious of the implication by now).

                                    That excuse does not exist for Beardsley, of course.

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                                      #43
                                      Originally posted by G-Man View Post
                                      So if, say, Jürgen Klopp were to use the word "monkey" in relation to black players, culturally he likely would not intend to issue a racial slur (though one would expect him to be conscious of the implication by now).
                                      Years ago, Aaron Hunt was briefly in trouble for using the shittiest of shit German insults for the British - "island monkey" - during an U-21 game against England. I'm not sure whether it was aimed directly at a black player, or directed at a white player within earshot of a black player.

                                      As one of his parents is English, one might have thought Hunt would have been aware of the implications a "monkey" insult might have. Personally, I think he was too stupid to realise it.

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                                        #44
                                        Gwyn Williams accused of racist bullying by fourth former Chelsea player

                                        https://www.theguardian.com/football...y_to_clipboard

                                        More and it's horrific.

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                                          #45
                                          Are Leeds still employing Williams?

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                                            #46
                                            Fascinating detail in recent Daniel Taylor column, which doesn’t bode brilliantly for Rix and Williams:

                                            Williams is flatly denying that he has ever racially abused anyone. He has issued a statement through his solicitor, Eddie Johns, to that effect and I did ring him when the first allegations surfaced. His response on that occasion was to say he did not know me and ask me to list the other football journalists on this newspaper before ringing off when it turned out they also were not familiar to him.

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                                              #47
                                              Ken Bates accused of ‘shameful’ comments over Chelsea racism scandal

                                              https://www.theguardian.com/football...y_to_clipboard

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                                                #48
                                                I’ve really got to stop wishing people agonizing deaths. But Bates really deserves Herod’s hideous maggot infested rotten guts.

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                                                  #49
                                                  And soon

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                                                    #50
                                                    West Ham Youth Coach goes on Football Lads Alliance march

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