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    Hartlepool massively fucked.

    Sorry if this is already somewhere in another thread but I thought I'd give everybody an update on the situation at Pools. Essentially, the new owners, who took over because they were owed lots of money by the previous bunch of chancers who had been bleeding the club dry, are pulling out and the club need to raise £200,000 by January 25th or we'll be going into administration.

    There has been a great response from around the region, particularly Middlesbrough, and it looks like our home match on the 20th could be turned into a Save Pools Day by pay on the door visitors from other clubs. The only drawback to this is that the owners still won't open the books for the last three years despite repeated promises to the Trust and Supporters Direct. It is a real worry that any money handed over at the turnstiles will end up disappearing into the owner's pockets so, although people turning up on the 20th would be a great morale booster, I'd suggest sending donations to HUST if you want to help out in the longer term.

    #2
    I wrote a thing about this last night, funnily enough.

    There seem to be a lot of accusations flying around towards the *current* owners of the club over all of this on the Pools forum. Is this just very 21st century anger or are the connections between them and the lot before them more solid than local paper coverage (which has, broadly, been excellent, I should add) has made clear?

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      #3
      Hard to say Ian. Sage moved in because they had loaned about half a million to the previous regime JPNG. JPNG got he club debt free for nothing and then came out with endless bullshit while running up debts and giving interviews where they said that HMRC winding up orders were just like gas bill reminders. There were lots of allegations about cash being taken out of the club by one JPNG director while another stayed on and seems to have being paying himself very well.

      Most of us assumed that JPNG used the Sage debt to pay off a different short term loan but that's not certain. What is certain that there was an overlap period when our current chairperson was working as financial officer under Gary Coxall who was the face of JPNG while they ran the club into the ground. We also assumed that Sage, who are property developers had been conned by JPNG who were keen to promote the Mill House Masterplan, a seriously flawed development scheme, as if it might actually work.

      Problem is that its hard to believe Sage anymore - they've been promising to show the Trust and Supporters Direct the books ever since they arrived but this has never happened. Hard to see why they won't if the only problems were caused by the last lot. My best guess is that a lot of the money going out of the club, £200,000 a month apparently, is paying off previous debt or interest including quite a lot going to the current owners. JPNG also keep appearing as still having a stake even though we were assured that they'd been bought out for a nominal sum to get rid of them.

      A Save Pools Day would be a great show of solidarity from other fans but the worry is that the gate money will disappear into the owners' coffers and we'll still be in admin.

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        #4
        I've seen two Just Giving pages already.

        Perhaps I'll take a look around Companies House tonight (I've had a brief look on there just now and Gary Coxall has been a very busy boy, at least up to his bankruptcy on the 11th October 2017) and see if that throws anything up on further connections between the two companies (Pamela Duxbury was appointed as a director of JPNG for a month from the end of May, but it was terminated).

        The failure to release accounts sounds troubling to me, not because they're not releasing them as such - if they're not required to, they have no obligation, them's the breaks - but because they've said that they would and then haven't.

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          #5
          Originally posted by born toulouse View Post

          it looks like our home match on the 20th could be turned into a Save Pools Day by pay on the door visitors from other clubs.
          Ironic that that's almost exactly 21 years on from the first Fans United day at the Goldstone Ground to try and help save Brighton where Hartlepool were the visitors (and lost 5-0). I wonder if the Seagulls could be prevailed upon to do something to help Pools out this time around.

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            #6
            There's a thread about it on NSC, but I don't see any reference to doing anything.

            http://www.northstandchat.com/showth...lepool-United&

            The problem with fundraising to pay wages now is: what happens next month? Even if we work to the assumption that the money gets to where it needs to go this time around, thirty-one days later the same amount of money is going to have to be paid out again, and without new buyers who are willing to sink in this sort of money until at least the end of the season (at which point there will be a little breathing space, hopefully some players coming out of contract and an opportunity to restructure a little), it's going to have to keep happening.

            I suspect that administration may be the best thing for the club in terms of saving it, but pre-pack admins are morally pretty repugnant and, although the Trust has grown tremendously since only being formed a couple of years ago, I can't imagine they're anywhere near being able to buy a meaningful stake in the club under any circumstances at present. My concern would be that chucking money into paying staff wages (which is, let's not forget, the club's responsibility) would be better spent preparing for administration. A ten point deduction would put them on twenty-three points, eight from safety. And the National League rules on insolvency events might well see them expelled anyway. But the National League North - especially at the top end - is very competitive and there would be no guarantees of promotion straight back, as I daresay our Yorkists and Stockportists could confirm.

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              #7
              That would be great Ray. We were fairly deeply in trouble ourselves at that point and it felt a bit like the football world had united against us - be good to find out that wasn't the case.

              And Ian, I think there is a typo on trust membership numbers in your very piece. There were over 800 members at the nd of last year and i'd guess it is up to 900 by now.

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                #8
                Ah, cheers. That number was from something old so I did wonder. Changed, already.

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by My Name Is Ian View Post
                  I've seen two Just Giving pages already.

                  Perhaps I'll take a look around Companies House tonight (I've had a brief look on there just now and Gary Coxall has been a very busy boy, at least up to his bankruptcy on the 11th October 2017) and see if that throws anything up on further connections between the two companies (Pamela Duxbury was appointed as a director of JPNG for a month from the end of May, but it was terminated).

                  The failure to release accounts sounds troubling to me, not because they're not releasing them as such - if they're not required to, they have no obligation, them's the breaks - but because they've said that they would and then haven't.
                  Have a look for Peter Goldberg while you're there, and Peter Arber because that's his real name, or at least the one he used before he became Goldberg. The way it was explained to me is that Coxall was Goldberg's tea boy when they arrived. He was made CEO because Goldberg was keeping his head down after falling out with some business associates he was looking after money for. I have heard it alleged that Goldberg got a very nice lump sum when he left Pools.

                  JPNG only ever existed as a shell company to do a job on Pools and somebody I trust on the matter has told me that there were links between Goldberg and the TMH conmen who have now been convicted. Makes you wonder how on earth a reputable company like Sage Investments could have fallen for their tales. As far as the local press coverage goes the Hartlepool Mail just publish whatever the club feeds them and the Northern Echo sports editor fell for Coxall's lies so hard that they even mocked the fans that exposed his activities. Not entirely his fault because Coxall knew what he was doing and was probably very plausible. I'd struggle to agree that they've covered things well though.

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                    #10
                    The abbreviated accounts, to the end of June 2016, are available. Click here and then the entry for 6th April 2017:

                    https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...filing-history

                    There's some information on how to read an abbreviated balance sheet here, for those who are interested:

                    http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/i...trong-not.html

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                      #11
                      Oh, and here's your man Goldberg:

                      https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/o...E/appointments

                      And under his other name:

                      https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/o...g/appointments

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                        #12
                        I'll, er, just leave this here...


                        https://twitter.com/paulb7606/status...6%7Ctwterm%5E0

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                          #13
                          Can you explain how something the chairman who gave our club away to a bunch of crooks said in 2012 is relevant? I sent Darlo a few quid and have done the same for other decent football clubs in trouble. Of course a business man like Hodcroft spouted a load of unhelpful shite - you'd expect that from a Tory loving oil industry person.

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                            #14
                            As for the companies house stuff Ian - it really isn't hard to spot the sort of chancers that Coxall and Goldberg/Arber are is it? Having got the club for nothing with all debt being wiped by the previous owners they had already starting building debt and destroying the credit rating within a few months.

                            This is one of the reasons why I'm suspicious about Sage Investment's motives. You wouldn't want to get into bed with that pair unless you knew the venture was dodgy but still fancied your chances to make something out of it. Once that went wrong they kept the club afloat long enough to take back whatever they could get and now they're walking. Apparently the asking price is £1 but any buyer would have to take on the current liabilities which probably means continuing to pay back loans from the current and also payments that might be due to previous owners and employees. That would be an awful lot of cash going out before any income arrived with the next round of season ticket sales.

                            I'm not at all convinced that any prospective buyer would do that - they'd let admin happen and then pay pennies on the pound to get rid of old debts. Which makes me think that what is being leaked to the press might well be part of a stage managed move to administration and that any extra money the club gets before that happens will disappear with the owners. That's why I think a public show of support on the 20th would be great but donations to the Trust would actually help more in the long run.
                            Last edited by born toulouse; 11-01-2018, 10:21.

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by born toulouse View Post
                              Can you explain how something the chairman who gave our club away to a bunch of crooks said in 2012 is relevant? I sent Darlo a few quid and have done the same for other decent football clubs in trouble. Of course a business man like Hodcroft spouted a load of unhelpful shite - you'd expect that from a Tory loving oil industry person.
                              Oh there were some very nasty things said by some of your mob at the time.

                              Most, of course, were supportive.

                              Nobody wants to see anyone go kapput - however, I think the ones claiming "we'll never play you again" might be accurate, given the current run of results!

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Don't you have to take taunts from local rivals with a pinch of salt though?

                                When you first had George Reynolds at the helm we got plenty of abuse about our ground, lack of money etc. First time I heard "we'll never play you again" was when you were on your way up the escalator to the Premier League. A few years after that, following a couple of reports in the local press, there was a bit of a trend for fans of both clubs to accuse each other of being dog-noncers. I don't think anybody concerned really believed that pets were really at high risk in the other town.

                                Even most of the fans who sing the stupid songs understand that another club, just like theirs, going out of business is a sad state of affairs. Many of them would chip in to help the other club too. Bit pointless digging up daft remarks from the past whoever made them.

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                                  #17
                                  I note the crowdfunding efforts so far appear to be directly aimed at meeting debts and bills. Wouldn't it be better to have some sort of separate fund to raise cash rather than hand over to a club whose ownership is far from stable or reliable? (It's what we did, though not without some wrangling)

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                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by born toulouse View Post
                                    I'm not at all convinced that any prospective buyer would do that - they'd let admin happen and then pay pennies on the pound to get rid of old debts. Which makes me think that what is being leaked to the press might well be part of a stage managed move to administration and that any extra money the club gets before that happens will disappear with the owners. That's why I think a public show of support on the 20th would be great but donations to the Trust would actually help more in the long run.
                                    Exactly this. Donations to the Trust to build a war chest for likely administration or possible liquidation would be far more valuable than, umm, paying a business's overheads for it because the owners - who would have hugely benefited from their investment had it been successful - won't pay them any more. I can't justify that, morally.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      For reference, this is how our fund operated, and its mandate. It's not been without its hitches, especially as there's legal advice being sought now on what to do with it, but its overall founding principles were, I think, pretty solid and useful.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Thanks for that E10. As far as I know the Trust have suspended a similar appeal to yours because it could be seen as launching in opposition to the Justgiving fund that Rachel started. I can appreciate that it wouldn't help anybody for fans to be arguing at this stage but I very much doubt all of the cash being raised will be put to good use.

                                        If some of the rumours about the investors involved in Jeff Stelling's consortium turn out to be true the Trust are going to have to make some very hard decisions about who we're happy to get into bed with. Raj Singh didn't inflict the injuries that put Darlington on life support but he did pull the plug.

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                                          #21
                                          What's the full story with Stelling's consortium?

                                          Anyway, we may be sending someone up to your meeting next week, availabilty permitting

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                                            #22
                                            Can't go into details on here but it includes a couple of individuals that would cause serious concern to a lot of people, and a former manager as well as Stelling and the Trust. Could all be academic anyway - once all the tickets were shifted and the cash was handed over a potential investor was revealed. Bloke called Chris Musgrave who is from the town and certainly has lots of money. He also seems to be very well connected when it comes to local councils and planning permission and he is a property developer (the new airport in Kent and Samsung's factory site are a couple of thiongs he's been involved in). He could be a club saving hero type or just be keen on the land around the ground which his mates on the council might help him to develop. Maybe somewhere in the middle as he is widely liked and regarded as a cautious businessman rather than a borrow against assets speculator.

                                            Either way, mix that in with some arguments about fund raising campaigns and the composition of Jeff's consortium and having somebody from outside with your trust's sort of experience might be very helpful!

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                                              #23
                                              Chester fucked (again) too

                                              Apparently they only have £20k left in the bank, despite having reserves of £100k at the start of the season. They apparently need roughly £50k to see out the season.

                                              Attendances down to under 1,500. They've also got several players on two year contracts, and others on the verge of triggering clauses in their contract for a years' extension.

                                              In a meeting last night trust board members apparently blamed fans for, i assume, not electing better board members.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by born toulouse View Post
                                                He also seems to be very well connected when it comes to local councils and planning permission and he is a property developer (the new airport in Kent and Samsung's factory site are a couple of thiongs he's been involved in). He could be a club saving hero type or just be keen on the land around the ground which his mates on the council might help him to develop. Maybe somewhere in the middle as he is widely liked and regarded as a cautious businessman rather than a borrow against assets speculator.

                                                Either way, mix that in with some arguments about fund raising campaigns and the composition of Jeff's consortium and having somebody from outside with your trust's sort of experience might be very helpful!
                                                New airport in Kent? Do you mean Boris island, an utterly insane idea for an airport that never went anywhere? Or do you mean Manston Airport in Kent which is closed and has a planning application for thousands of new homes to be built. Either way, be very wary of this individual.

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                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by Bizarre Löw Triangle View Post
                                                  Chester fucked (again) too

                                                  Apparently they only have £20k left in the bank, despite having reserves of £100k at the start of the season. They apparently need roughly £50k to see out the season.

                                                  Attendances down to under 1,500. They've also got several players on two year contracts, and others on the verge of triggering clauses in their contract for a years' extension.

                                                  In a meeting last night trust board members apparently blamed fans for, i assume, not electing better board members.
                                                  It is a harsh lesson that community ownership isn't, in itself, a silver bullet. It is merely a start, a means to an end only. Supporters have to use all the avenues available to hold the club board accountable. I see that Chester have said that the way forward is working groups. At Bath City, we have started working groups from the start (including a fairly progressive Football one). However, I am not making out that we are any more clued up than Chester. Supporters have to keep their representatives feet to the fire. I say this as a supporters' representative at Bath City

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