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    #26
    Is Trickett saying contractors don't make losses without going bankrupt? That's pretty obviously rubbish. Chakraborty said that too.

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      #27
      Carillion ran the facilities and services at a place I worked ('09 to '15). Always got the impression that 'they' had no real idea what they were doing, or if 'they' did they had no idea how they would go about it. By 'they' I mean the on and off site management. I got the impression (probably wrong) that Carillion bid for the contract, won it, and then hoped for the best in delivering the services.

      The management structure seemed skewed. Too many layers, decisions not being made at a local level and being deferred up, ensuring delays, ineffectiveness and inefficiencies. Bit of a shambles from my perspective. In fact, from everyone's perspective, including their own workers.

      Of course the workers are the real losers here. I just hope that the blokes I had daily contact with can get a job that rewards their skills and competencies and have decent T&C's

      Carillion's industrial relations were a disgrace on site (and I imagine company policy, so everywhere). Their workers used to come to me and other shop stewards for advice, information and guidance as the company I worked for had a recognition agreement with Unite. Unsurprisingly Carillion didn't.
      Last edited by NickSTFU; 15-01-2018, 20:28.

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        #28
        Did they lose the contract?

        Councils seem to struggle with these contracts. I'd rather they were done by metro mayors or devolved parliaments.

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          #29
          Originally posted by NickSTFU View Post
          Carillion ran the facilities and services at a place I worked ('09 to '15). Always got the impression that 'they' had no real idea what they were doing, or if 'they' did they had no idea how they would go about it. By 'they' I mean the on and off site management. I got the impression (probably wrong) that Carillion bid for the contract, won it, and then hoped for the best in delivering the services.

          The management structure seemed skewed. Too many layers, decisions not being made at a local level and being deferred up, ensuring delays, ineffectiveness and inefficiencies. Bit of a shambles from my perspective. In fact, from everyone's perspective, including their own workers.

          Of course the workers are the real losers here. I just hope that the blokes I had daily contact with can get a job that rewards their skills and competencies and have decent T&C's

          Carillion's industrial relations were a disgrace on site (and I imagine company policy, so everywhere). Their workers used to come to me and other shop stewards for advice, information and guidance as the company I worked for had a receptionist agreement with Unite. Unsurprisingly Carillion didn't.
          Similar to the experience I've got at my school this. Feel really sorry for the staff who are great but they've known for ages how bad things were. Sub contractors not being paid and being constantly changed to avoid paying them.

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            #30
            I've a friend who's a fairly high earning surveyor or somesuch for them, he'll be one of those that gets paid until Wednesday. I'm sure he'll be OK picking something similar up, but if not it will serve him right for voting Tory all his life. He's not a close friend, as you can probably gather. Anyway I voted for Blair/Brown who set the wheels in motion, so fuck me too.

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              #31
              Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
              Is Trickett saying contractors don't make losses without going bankrupt? That's pretty obviously rubbish. Chakraborty said that too.
              What he’s saying is that generally the profit is privatised and the state is expected to pick up the tab if things go wrong. Carillion was apparently shorting itself and is loaded with debt whilst paying ever higher dividends relying on new contracts for cash flow like an in house Ponzi scheme. You can point to Raultrack but it’s very much the exception.

              And costs like eg protection of the pensions will fall on the state.

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                #32
                Originally posted by NickSTFU View Post
                I got the impression (probably wrong) that Carillion bid for the contract, won it, and then hoped for the best in delivering the services.
                My brother's ex partner was a senior manager at Serco. She would openly admit that the pitching and bidding side of things was the happening end of the business and that delivery was something of an afterthought.

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                  #33
                  But losses are made all the time by contactors. Today I saw a National Audit Office report on Govia. They've made a loss. Abellio did on Scotrail. Stagecoach have on the East Coast Mainline. That's just trains.

                  Losses don't generally get socialized.

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                    #34
                    Anyway the way they made money was saving on delivery. Which meant cutting wages and conditions getting rid of Long term staff and casualising, . They ran blacklists in the building trade and did t encourage unions.

                    Reminder that Germany has trade unions on the board of most companies

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                      #35
                      Serco used to run the DLR. I don't recall them having a bad reputation, or Livingstone being fussed about bringing it in-house.

                      I imagine TFL were a bit harder to slip stuff past than some Serco win business off.

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                        #36
                        Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View Post
                        Anyway the way they made money was saving on delivery. Which meant cutting wages and conditions getting rid of Long term staff and casualising, . They ran blacklists in the building trade and did t encourage unions.

                        Reminder that Germany has trade unions on the board of most companies
                        I think that's part of it, and we need to boost workers rights and board level representation. But equally competition often spurs genuine improvement. My brother in law is a rail engineer. He much prefers working for a contractor to working for Network Rail.

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                          #37
                          Carillion are still running one of the contracts at my old workplace (just texted an old colleague).

                          And don't get me started on Serco the bunch of charlatan cunts.

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                            #38
                            Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
                            But losses are made all the time by contactors. Today I saw a National Audit Office report on Govia. They've made a loss. Abellio did on Scotrail. Stagecoach have on the East Coast Mainline. That's just trains.

                            Losses don't generally get socialized.
                            But making a loss can be a very profitable way of running a business. Depending on your financial structure, your network of companies. your tax liabilities, how you deal with things dividends, where you carry your loans etc.

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                              #39
                              Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
                              I think that's part of it, and we need to boost workers rights and board level representation. But equally competition often spurs genuine improvement. My brother in law is a rail engineer. He much prefers working for a contractor to working for Network Rail.
                              There are all kinds of reasons why he might prefer it. The sandwiches might be better. Network rail is the worst of all worlds I imagine.

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                                #40
                                These are operating losses, not tax losses.

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                                  #41
                                  Tubby's brother-in-law might prefer the flexibility of contracting. My neighbour works for Network Rail as an electrical engineer and is generally positive about them.

                                  Very well paid at least.

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                                    #42
                                    Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View Post
                                    There are all kinds of reasons why he might prefer it. The sandwiches might be better. Network rail is the worst of all worlds I imagine.
                                    Sandwiches, that's it. He thinks Network Rail waste their engineer's time. And no, he doesn't want Railtrack back.

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                                      #43
                                      G4s Servo and the like are fucking parasites. Frequently incompetent parasites, not that being so ever seems to count against them when the next contract's up for renewal.

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                                        #44
                                        Originally posted by Mr Beast View Post
                                        G4s Serco and the like are fucking parasites. Frequently incompetent parasites, not that being so ever seems to count against them when the next contract's up for renewal.
                                        .

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                                          #45
                                          Repeating myself like Trump. Sad!

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                                            #46
                                            Didn't know Serco ran the Caledonian Sleeper.

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                                              #47
                                              Corbyn's statement on Carillion is quite something. What he says about the East Coast Mainline is a complete lie.

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                                                #48
                                                Tubby getting increasingly pro Virgin/

                                                Where's the lie? Corbyn speaks of "the 2 billion public bailout of Richard Branson's Virgin and Stagecoach for their failure to run the East Coast line properly" That Virgin East Coast were saved or "bailed out" from paying 2 billion is what the FT says too

                                                The government has now stepped in, kindly offering to mop up the red ink and cancel the franchise contract three years early. Transport secretary Chris Grayling insists it’s not a bailout, despite the fact that his intervention will spare Virgin the agony of writing the £2bn cheque it had promised over the final punchiest leg of the franchise. In return, the owners may have to cough up no more than a £165m parent guarantee.n practice, however, a bailout is precisely what Mr Grayling has delivered. True, the East Coast franchise has conked out twice before. But in both cases the owners formally defaulted. When National Express handed back the keys in 2009, it was banned from further franchise bids for three years, with the franchise scooped into a state-owned company that actually did rather well.

                                                The result is not only an extraordinarily advantageous outcome for Virgin and Stagecoach, who otherwise faced heavy losses. It also raises serious questions about the credibility of franchise auctions — the main competitive tool the government uses both to keep franchise owners honest and to legitimise private-sector profits.
                                                Last edited by Nefertiti2; 15-01-2018, 21:24.

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                                                  #49
                                                  I thought most people accepted Grayling and the government have given Stagecoach and Virgin a totally unwarranted bailout.

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                                                    #50
                                                    Did you read that Zelo article, Nef?

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