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    Firminho Racism Allegation

    This has become a major story, according to The Guardian. Two versions floating on social media are that Firmino called his mother a whore in Portuguese or that he used the n-word. Unfortunately the only evidence we have so far is the player's reaction and lots of amateur lipreading.

    So how is this most likely to play out? The JT one seemed to drag on for years and the hearing did not resolve it to most people's satisfaction.
    Last edited by Satchmo Distel; 06-01-2018, 14:16.

    #2
    You don't need to be much of a lipreader to see that he's shouting Filho de Puta. Given that the referee is stood literally between the two I think if Firminho had been yelling anything racist the ref would have heard that, don't you?
    Last edited by Rogin the Armchair fan; 06-01-2018, 11:24.

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      #3
      Rogin getting the defence in early.

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        #4
        This is covered on the FA Cup thread, Holgate appeared to be incensed by something Firminho said after the puta comment and on the footage seems to tell the referee it was the n word. Apparently he spoke to the ref again at full time to report it.

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          #5
          You can bloody see it with your own eyes!

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            #6
            Firminho’s second comment (which is what seems to trigger Holgate’s angry reaction) looks to have been made when his face was obscured by the referee on the BBC’s coverage so none of us have seen it.
            Last edited by Ray de Galles; 06-01-2018, 11:42.

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              #7
              Out of curiosity, would the ref or Holgate understand a comment in Portuguese?

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                #8
                Ah, I see. Well we'll have wait for the ref's report then. He must have heard whatever was said - as I said, he was stood between them.

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                  #9
                  it seems I posted in the wrong thread. I would love to know what Firmino, Brazil's response to Blue Mink, is supposed to have said to the jamaican Mick McCarthy.

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                    #10
                    I think puta or variations on it are pretty well known to people who don't speak the language.

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                      #11
                      Apologies for misspelling Firmino's name in the title. I've always assumed that Portuguese names have an 'inho' spelling, although there is Rivelino.

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                        #12
                        In your defence Satchmo Rivelino is of Italian descent

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                          #13
                          So is Firmino, probably. A lot of Italians went to brazil in the nineteenth century. I'm sure that we're going to get vivid explorations of his background and why this means that he couldn't possibly have used the sort of language that is prohibited.


                          Are we now going to get a rerun of the Suarez Evra fiasco, except now people are far more relaxed about being openly racist on twitter?
                          Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 06-01-2018, 14:29.

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                            #14
                            Well we can certainly avoid another Suarez thing on here by waiting to hear what shakes out rather than everyone piling in on one side or another.
                            If Holgate did indeed make the accusation, then it needs to be treated seriously and if true, punished seriously. And if it turns out he misheard or misunderstood then Firmino should be exonerated.
                            I see no benefit in suggesting that Holgate would make an deliberately erroneous accusation. That way madness lay.

                            It is worth saying however that Holgate was not calm before hearing what Firmino said. He had conceded a penalty, deliberately shoved a player into the hoardings while off the pitch and squared up when Firmino ran at him. That is not someone being calm and in control. Nor of course was Firmino, evidently.
                            That in no way changes the real issue, but let's not fuck around this time looking for ways to make the story what we want rather than what it is.
                            Last edited by hobbes; 06-01-2018, 16:07.

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                              #15
                              I'm definitely on the fence and awaiting developments. My fear, as I expressed in the OP, is that this can't be resolved by the available evidence and it comes down to one person's word against another's, and the hypothesis that Holgate misheard can't be verified or discounted.

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                                #16
                                Maybe it won't. And twitter-twats will be twitter twats on both imagined sides.
                                I'd just rather OTF doesn't go that way again.
                                Given that the ref, Jonjoe Kenny and Adam Lallana were closer to Firmino than Holgate at the time and none reacted I'd imagine it'll be a case of mishearing with neither player at fault. But the referee did exactly the right thing* reporting it to the FA so it can be investigated, even if the FA are fucking useless.

                                *Although Holgate should have been carded or sent off for the attempt to injure Firmino and Firmino booked for his reaction to it, the ref has maybe left it open for the FA to look at too, without inflaming the situation on the pitch.
                                Last edited by hobbes; 06-01-2018, 16:34.

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                                  #17
                                  hobbes if you go back and read that thread again, it's all very civilized for the first thirty pages or so, with basically everyone assuming that Suarez was a bit of a villain, and an idiot, who crossed a line that he probably didn't know was there. It's only when the the report comes out and the scale of Suarez's Stupidity, Malice and fundamental dishonesty becomes clear that things take off. But also the revelation that liverpool knew from the very beginning that he did it, and told the referee that he did it, and then still allowed everything that happened afterwards to happen. In their first conversation with the club solicitor they would have been told that he was definitely going to get at least a four game ban, on the basis of what Comolli told the referee after the game, and that their best option was to get the player to plead guilty and apologize for having crossed a line while trying to gain an advantage on the pitch. He would have got a five match ban, and everyone would have moved on.

                                  Instead it turned into an unmerciful shit show, where literally every decision made by everyone at anfield was the worst one.

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                                    #18
                                    You'll get no argument from me about how the club handled it. But there were 2 or 3 threads that ended up with people screaming past each other, completely convinced they were correct in every detail. It nearly broke this place.
                                    I mean fuck, one fuking moron even suggested faux-innocently that the Hillsborough memorial flame on the shirt was a burning cross a-la the KKK. When it stoops to that level of deliberately inflammatory fuckwittery, you can see how I'd like us to be a bit more grown up and non adversarial so as not to ruin what is at present a pretty good place.

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                                      #19
                                      I really don't remember that. who the hell said that?

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                                        #20
                                        Not worth saying now. It wasn't you, obviously.

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                                          #21
                                          I couldn't find it anywhere, but I could find you back in 2012 saying that someone said it, so that will have to do. If you completely made it up, you've stuck with it so long, I think that we have to accept it as true at this point. (this is how history actually gets to be written)

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                                            #22
                                            If I completely made it up? Fucks sake.

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                                              #23
                                              The first part of that sentence is the important bit The second part is just musing on how broadly contemporaneous accounts are used to construct History. josephus mentioning Jesus, 50 years after his death is taken as evidence that he actually existed.
                                              Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 06-01-2018, 17:53.

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                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Rogin the Armchair fan View Post
                                                He must have heard whatever was said - as I said, he was stood between them.
                                                I don't think it's that easy to hear words between two people that clearly when you're dealing with 52,000 raised voices and various devices blocking up your ear canals.

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                                                  #25
                                                  Well whatever comes out of this I just hope this time the rest of Liverpool's first team squad aren't allowed to make fucking t-shirts again.

                                                  SURELY they learnt that lesson last time.

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