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Once more on C4: F1 and motorsport 2018

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    That's an interesting question, Kev.

    So far as I know, no such thing exists, or has even been mooted, although it could be argued that the Monte Carlo rally ought to have formed part of the triple crown, rather than the Grand Prix - after all, it started in 1911 (same year as Indianapolis), whilst Le Mans came along in 1923 and a race on the streets of Monaco didn't happen until 1929, attaining Grand Prix status in 1933 but having a sketchy post-war period before settling down in 1955 to become the iconic event it is now.

    In modern rallying terms, there are maybe three standout events in prestige terms, those being Monte, the 1000 Lakes (now boringly called Rally Finland) and the Safari, which hasn't been run in the WRC since 2002 as it had simply become too dangerous and expensive to run an event like this on open public roads (although it runs as a historic event every two years and has recently held a WRC-style candidate event on closed roads, so it may yet make a long overdue return). The other Grandes Dames of the WRC are Sweden, the RAC (a.k.a. Rally GB), the Tour de Corse, the Acropolis (sadly demoted for largely political reasons) and Portugal, which lost quite a bit of it's cachet when it had a spell away from the classic stages to the north of Porto for safety reasons. However, fine events though they are, none of these has enough about them to challenge the first three as contenders to form part of a triple crown.

    Dakar is obviously a very different challenge, and worthy of its place at the pointy end of any list of great motorsport events. Many WRC drivers have tried their hand, but generally at the tail end of their career (Juha Kankkunen and Ari Vatanen being exceptions, mainly due to their employers being forced out of WRC through the rule changes that saw the end of Group B).

    If I were to pick a third discipline, it would probably be rallycross, which is enjoying such an upsurge in popularity at the moment. The problem with that is, there's no single round of the series that has iconic status in the way that Monte Carlo does in rallying, or the Indy 500 in oval racing - they're all a bit homogenous (even more so now that Lydden Hill has been replaced by Silverstone). It's still an off-road discipline though, and has plenty of ex-rally drivers competing.

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      A lot of people have rolled their eyes at Toyota, but after all the bad luck they've had, God bless 'em. Just beating Le Mans itself is worthy.

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        Great reply, thanks TRL! Since the Triple Crown is unofficial anyway I believe there is some disagreement about what the Formula 1 part of it should be - win the Monaco GP (hello Jarno Trulli and Olivier Panis) or win the World Drivers' Championship. Of course Alonso has managed both, but Montoya (another guy with fingers in the Triple Crown pie) has a Monaco win but not the WDC.

        So I suppose a straightforward definition of a Rallying Triple Crown would be to win: WRC, Dakar, World RX.

        I like how wide-ranging that is, and it's nice to give a nod to RX, which is growing as you say. But I guess one issue is that since World RX is so new, it cuts out a lot of previous generations of drivers. Juha Kankkunen and Walter Röhrl, for example never had the chance to be World RX champion. And then there's Petter Solberg, who won World RX and WRC but his 13 rallies don't include any of the historical three that you mention, so I kind of don't want to see him as a Dakar away from legendary status.

        Under this system, I think we have some drivers with 2/3: Sainz (WRC and Dakar), Kankkunen (WRC and Dakar) and Solberg (WRC and WRX).

        The Safari rally is an interesting one, isn't it? You get this spell with the likes of Kankkunen, Sainz and McRae winning it and then it goes all Kenyan again. So given the history of the rallies, I guess if there is just one race from the WRC it probably has to be Monte Carlo as it's been around a fair bit longer than the 1000 Lakes.

        Dakar is a given then - it's so unique a challenge and I think the fact that drivers attempt it near the end of their careers is not (just) because they see it as a nice bauble, but because of the endurance and the experience required. You need to have driven those millions of kilometres across the world's rallies to develop that reflex reaction to the changing conditions in Dakar. A driver like Neuville as he is now simply hasn't seen as many miles as Sainz or Loeb has, and won't read the signs as instinctively as they will. What the old guard might lack in pure speed, I reckon they make up for with nous and endurance.

        So yeah, Pikes Peak is a tempting one, because it's just always been there, for over 100 years, and has tempted a few of the greats in the last 40-odd years.

        That gives another possible Triple Crown of: Monte Carlo, Dakar, Pikes Peak and some with 2/3 include: Sainz (Monte Carlo, Dakar), Röhrl (Monte Carlo, Pikes Peak) and Loeb (Monte Carlo and Pikes Peak). Kankkunen missed out on winning Monte Carlo when the Lancia boss told him to finish behind his team-mate Miki Biasion. Ouch.

        Loeb has been unlucky not to win a Dakar of course, and hopefully someone will give him a drive next year. Dakar with no Peugeot is like Le Mans with no Porsche prototypes...

        And pulling these disparate strands of thread together, it turns out that the 2018 Pikes Peak is this weekend, and the 2010 & 2016 Le Mans winner Romain Dumas is going for his fourth win of the event. I don't know if he will get close to the course record set by Loeb in 2013 but VW have given him a nutzoid car for the job. Here it is, and Loeb's insane run from five years ago. Dumas' best effort so far was 8:51.445 compared to Loeb's 8:13.878.




        Last edited by Kevin S; 18-06-2018, 22:41.

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          However, as nutzoid as that car looks, it sounds like a Scalex-tric...

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            And I suppose the issue with Pikes Peak is that the field is quite thin each year in terms of top professionals. So probably not that, then. Perhaps the Lakes and MC are a better choice, plus Dakar.

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              Originally posted by Kevin S View Post
              So yeah, Pikes Peak is a tempting one, because it's just always been there, for over 100 years, and has tempted a few of the greats in the last 40-odd years.

              That gives another possible Triple Crown of: Monte Carlo, Dakar, Pikes Peak and some with 2/3 include: Sainz (Monte Carlo, Dakar), Röhrl (Monte Carlo, Pikes Peak) and Loeb (Monte Carlo and Pikes Peak). Kankkunen missed out on winning Monte Carlo when the Lancia boss told him to finish behind his team-mate Miki Biasion. Ouch.

              Loeb has been unlucky not to win a Dakar of course, and hopefully someone will give him a drive next year. Dakar with no Peugeot is like Le Mans with no Porsche prototypes...
              Bruno Saby was another for your list, Kev - he won a Monte, one of his only two WRC wins and was something of a tarmac expert - but he also went on to win a Dakar which shows he was handy on the loose, too.

              The thing with Pikes Peak nowadays is that it's all asphalt (since 2012) which makes it feel less like it belongs in an unofficial off-road triple crown. But then Monte is (nominally) all asphalt too...

              Anyway - Ari Vatanen, then. Won the Monte in 1985, Pikes Peak in 1988 and Dakar in 1987, 89, 90 and 1991. Could have won the WRC in 1985, although he was behind his team mate and eventual champion Timo Salonen in the points before the terrible accident in Argentina, so it's debatable whether the team would've favoured him in the championship run-in. But he's yer man for the triple crown.

              Despite Vatanen's successes, Loeb is possibly the best all-rounder. Multi WRC wins on every surface, highly competitive at Dakar, winner of Pikes Peak and now winning finals in WRX - the man is just phenominally good at whatever he does. However, if you want to step down a level and look at another all-rounder who didn't quite reach the heights of Loeb's brilliance, then how about Per Eklund?

              - Won one WRC round (Sweden, back in 1976 in a Saab 96), 5th in the WRC in 1982 and was still taking podiums in the late 1980s.
              - European rallycross champion in 1999, placing on the championship podium 5 more times and competed in his last WRX round in 2015 at the age of 69.
              - Pikes Peak dual winner in 2000 and 2002 - in a Saab.

              The only thing he never tried was Dakar, presumably because Saab, with whom he was most closely associated, never saw any value in entering it.

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                Brilliant stuff, thanks again. And Oh My God There's A Short Actual Film Of Vatanen On Pikes Peak. It's so much better with a loose surface.
                Last edited by Kevin S; 19-06-2018, 10:42.

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                  But I'm glad you give your best all-rounder vote to Loeb. I want to but I don't have the depth of knowledge to make that call. It's funny how when he comes back for some WRC events you don't get a sense that this is a veteran just happy to be there for old times' sake. You know he's there because he's the Daddy, and is going to show these young pups exactly how it's done.

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                    News today that Red Bull are doing a reverse-McLaren. Going from Renault to Honda engines next season after trying them out in the Toro Rossos.

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                      I think Renault might be a bit pissed off that this (which has been on the cards for a while) was announced in the run-up to their home Grand Prix. I think the yellows are keen to make a big impression this weekend and they've said that they hope to make RB regret this decision with their future developments on the engine.

                      Part of me would like to see Renault respond by applying pressure to Nissan, whom they part own, to establish a Nismo F1 team with the Renault engine on board. Unfortunately for this daydream, Nismo are busy getting ready to run one of these

                      and I guess they won't be able to take on both together.

                      Anyway, so we're heading to Paul Ricard. And here's Lewis taking us round it.
                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-v9OKpm2t0
                      Last edited by Kevin S; 19-06-2018, 21:13.

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                        Mmm, WRC have just uploaded a video on YouTube of the Safari rally. Wonder if they are trying to bring it back into the fold?
                        https://youtu.be/2MWv2wwdEfk

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                          Wasn't going to go, as doing the 24mile Yorkshire 3 Peak Challenge the day before, but have decided to go up to Croft on Sunday for the BTCC. Last year was a real emotional rollercoaster for Motorbase; on the Sunday they got their first win and a couple of other podiums; but on the Saturday Luke Davenport nearly lost his life in a 10-car collision during practice. Oil on the track caused him to spin off and all the cars behind him also span off, all collecting the number 300 car. If it wasn't for the fact that the seats are no longer static, but move very slightly to cushion impact, then it would have been a very different story for him. Even a year on, he's still struggling with his injuries but having been "fortunate" to have seen the damaged car in the garage, he was a very lucky man indeed. Hopefully this Sunday will be as good as last year, and there will be no dramas on the Saturday.

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                            Hamilton and Bottas on the front row. Leclerc with a great effort to get into Q3. Grosjean got into Q3 as well but then planted his Haas into the wall in what we would call true Grosjean style.

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                              French Grand Prix highlights just starting on C4 if, like me, you've managed to avoid finding out the result.

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                                Porsche shatter the Nürburgring record:
                                https://presse.porsche.de/prod/press...otorsport-news

                                https://youtu.be/PQmSUHhP3ug
                                Last edited by Kevin S; 30-06-2018, 09:36.

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                                  And speaking of new records, Dumas and the electric VW beat Loeb and Peugeot's time for Pikes Peak:
                                  https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/m...ashes-outright

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                                    It seems that Kimi may be having a run in a Yaris WRC in the not-too-distant future, which will give him an interesting post-Ferrari option to think about.

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                                      Fuck me that was fast. Bernhard lifted on some corners I suspect you don't have to lift on too, like Schwedenkreuz, Metzgefeld, and Klostertal.

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                                        The Nürburgring is hosting its annual European Truck Racing Grand Prix this weekend, which has become a type of folk festival for drivers and country music enthusiasts from all over the continent. To an American, it looks a bit like a redneck take on Le Mans.



                                        There's a live stream on YouTube, though the racing is currently GT 4 cars before the big boys get back on the circuit.

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                                          Grosjean on for another decent grid position here. Magnussen too, so Haas are getting something right.

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                                            Blimey, sixth, he edges out Ricciardo.

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                                              Steffi Halm wins the truck race.

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                                                Vettel penalised, down from 3rd to 6th.

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                                                  Some weekend action:

                                                  Formula 1 Austrian GP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNmfS9PSeYg&t=1s
                                                  World RX Sweden: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBJ_wdLzumk

                                                  And if you want to watch the truck racing, their videos are here:
                                                  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4x...NqA_-kA/videos

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                                                    So, yeah, weird to see both Mercs fail, but great to see Max follow up on a great drive in France with another one yesterday. Silverstone next and Lewis will be looking to bounce straight back to the top of the WDC table.

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