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    #26
    Originally posted by Fussbudget View Post
    The "wearing a pair of high heels" bit seems super tone-deaf. Maybe men who see women as cartoon characters are not best-placed to change the attitudes of other men.
    Or raise money for health services. Presumably the US crowd got as sniffy and defensive as the Ludlow lot.

    I'm a little more unsure about the 'me too' stuff. Those that I have seen from males were certainly jarring. On the other hand the stigma about Men admitting to sexual abuse is at least as great as for Women, and I'm also uncomfortable about any exclusionary message being sent about their suffering. I guess it's highly unlikely that males saying 'me too' will be more than drops in the ocean.

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      #27
      Originally posted by Fussbudget View Post
      The "wearing a pair of high heels" bit seems super tone-deaf. Maybe men who see women as cartoon characters are not best-placed to change the attitudes of other men.
      They’re college students.
      I’m not sure how that makes women into cartoon characters. Sure, not all women wear heels all of the time, but it’s an aphorism and if they weren’t high heeled, it wouldn’t be at all challenging or noticeable.

      Doesn't really accomplish much, I suppose, other than raise money for the Women's Resource Center, which is an important organization here.

      The best objection would be to point out that the Intrafraternity Council that is one of the main sponsors and they are the same student-run organization that hasn't been able to rid their own member organizations of sexual violence and hazing so dangerous and behavior so callous that a kid died last year.

      It's also possibly read as transphobic, I suppose.

      EDIT: I was going to pull up the student newspaper article on this to show you how well-received it was and how benign and positive it is, but then I read it and it just seemed like a bunch of frat guys and their female friends congratulating themselves, and in light of recent events and the weekly police reports, they shouldn't be congratulating themselves on this issue. No woman was quoted in the article.

      So scratch everything I wrote before. Including the post above. I don't want to delete it though, because otherwise this edit won't make sense.
      Last edited by Hot Pepsi; 18-10-2017, 01:42.

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        #28
        Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
        This Twitter thread is worth reading.

        Really, the best thing men should do is shut the fuck up and listen for a change, and tell other men to shut the fuck up and listen. And stop, if they're harassers or abusers.
        She makes the key point that men should focus on their everyday behaviours rather than these "supportive" gestures. Lead by example not by platitudes.

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          #29
          Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
          She makes the key point that men should focus on their everyday behaviours rather than these "supportive" gestures.
          For some reason this made me think of showboating Sunday lunch cooks who aren't so fussed about the week's other 20 meals.

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            #30
            Originally posted by MsD View Post
            Btw HP I get and agree with your point about male on male rape but am too tired to add anything now. We're all comrades in this.
            Indeed.

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              #31
              I've been feeling a little pissed off today after thinking how this stuff only seems to matter after it happens to famous people at the hands of other famous people. I was 18 when I was backed into a supply closet at work by a man who was old enough to be my grandfather. I still gag when I think about his lips touching mine.

              That's only the first time I remember it happening to me. There have been so many other times, I would be here for hours typing them all, except that I've worked really hard to move past those horrible memories and I have no interest in dredging them up just to somehow try to prove to people on social media that harassment, both at work and outside of work, is a thing. IT'S A THING. I wish the "me too" would stop now.

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                #32
                Respect!!!

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                  #33
                  What Reed said, M

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                    #34
                    Thanks.

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                      #35
                      It feels like I should say more, but I don't know what that would be.

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                        #36
                        I think us guys should generally not say more. If women add "Me too" we should listen. If they don't we shouldn't assume anything. We shouldn't press for more or add more. We should just stop and listen.

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                          #37
                          Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
                          This Twitter thread is worth reading.

                          Really, the best thing men should do is shut the fuck up and listen for a change, and tell other men to shut the fuck up and listen. And stop, if they're harassers or abusers.
                          This is really good. Thanks for sharing. I've never heard of her, but now I want to read her book.

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                            #38
                            We are going through a historical period of finding out the good and bad ways of using social media to express and share pain and to express empathy for those who suffer it at the hands of abusers.

                            Men will make mistakes because they have only been required to feel any empathy at all in very recent times, after millennia of not giving a shit or blaming the victim. They are taking baby steps towards empathy, but three steps forward, two back, often.

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                              #39

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                                #40
                                That Emily Reynolds Twitter feed is excellent.

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                                  #41
                                  Good to see QPR forward David Wheeler mention #MeToo in his latest column on his club's official website.. Small steps etc.

                                  No doubt he'll be inundated with "stick to football mate" by Jack, 21, a banterer who isn't ever told to "stick to your own job mate" whenever he spouts his own shite online.

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                                    #42
                                    Originally posted by San Bernardhinault View Post
                                    I think us guys should generally not say more. If women add "Me too" we should listen. If they don't we shouldn't assume anything. We shouldn't press for more or add more. We should just stop and listen.
                                    But guys are incapable of just trying to understand things and not trying to make their opinion known or explaining why someone is wrong online. It's what the whole NOT ALL MEN meme is about.

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                                      #43
                                      “Not all men do that, Inca. Not ALL men. That’s just a femanazi propoganda. I know because I’ve been red-pilled, unlike all you cucks.”

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                                        #44
                                        There are obviously those mouth breathers that think that they're defending Western Civilization and truly respect women because they want them to stay in the home and embody motherhood, but I think the guys who think that they're liberal and just want to logically discuss everything and nothing should be unquestioned are worse.

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                                          #45
                                          A lot of those guys, I think, may be on the spectrum. They just don’t seem to have any ability to “read the room” or know how to interact with other humans.

                                          Twitter is not real life, of course. A huge percentage of functioning adults are not on it. So it can leave one with the impression that the world is dumber than it really is.

                                          Not that people on the spectrum are dumb. That’s not what I meant.
                                          Last edited by Hot Pepsi; 18-10-2017, 13:55.

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                                            #46
                                            What I like about that thread is that it pulls up "liberal-leaning" men on some of their entitled ways, such as simply assuming that they have to insert their voices into every debate (People Like Us do this all the time, without thinking), or describing looking after our own children as "babysitting".

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                                              #47
                                              Of course I started the thread so men and women could comment on it. All helpful and thoughtful contributions are welcome.

                                              What I didn't/don't appreciate is the whimpering I've already referred to, then the sort of men who always want to intellectually arm-wrestle me as though I've never been challenged in my long-legged life, and as if this wasn't a subject that is deeply sensitive. "Do you really regard men as one homogenous entity? Have you tried a more fluid way of thinking, and ever thought that we are not, perhaps, all exactly the same?" Gosh no, mate, I've never fucking thought of that, I thought every bloke in the world was identical.

                                              Then, mansplaining/mansummarising, when a man summarises *what I've just said perfectly clearly*, needing to put his manly stamp of authoritative manliness on it - Annabella Weir captured "the Invisible Woman" on the Fast Show really neatly, it's like it hasn't been said until a man says it. Equally annoying, men tend to "like" or respond to that comment and not the woman's before it.

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                                                #48
                                                That’s a strong post from Bruno and more good comments from MsD.

                                                Going back a bit...

                                                Emily Reynolds sort of clarified the “don’t comment on her looks” thing as it’s ok to say you like her new haircut but don’t comment on her body, etc.

                                                I think that’s sound advice for anyone you’re not intimate with - especially people you’re working with - but romantic partners and even friends can and should work out their own boundaries. That has to be worked out more or less explicitly.

                                                Complimenting something a person chose - haircut, shirt, tattoo, hat, sunglasses, whatever - as opposed to their body, is rarely a bad idea, I think. It’s complementing their taste and can lead to an interesting conversation about travel or any number of things. Though, as a straight guy, I feel weird complimenting women on dresses, shoes, and leggings. Unless the shoes are sneakers or Doc Martins. Otherwise it feels too intimate. Weird.

                                                Speaking as a fat piece of shit, even if I’ve lost weight, i’m not really comfortable talking about it with most people. It’s too personal and wrapped up in my mental problems. I’ll be polite about it, but it makes me uncomfortable. (Unless it’s my doctor or my parents.) So I wouldn’t go there with anyone else, especially a woman where weight and body image are usually especially fraught.

                                                I might say, for example “I saw you running by my house the other day. My God, you were hauling ass!” (I live near a street where a lot of people run) That’s a round about way of commenting on a person’s body, in that it refers to their athletic abilty. But it’s not gender specific or sexual. And I love the expression “hauling ass.”

                                                Emily Reynolds refers to “emotional labor,” so I looked it up. It applies to jobs like nursing or anything where somebody has to manage their emotions in front of other people - usually jobs associated with women. But it also applies to relationships, especially marriages. Even if the men do at least half the work, women tend to be asked to *manage* the task lists, etc, which puts an extra burden on them that men tend not to recognize.

                                                I’m not married or in a relationship, but I can see that in some of my friends’ relationships, especially if the man works more hours outside the home. The wife seems to be the only one that knows the family’s calendar, for example. They need a shared google doc or something. And often it’s the wife managing all of the relationships with couple friends and relatives, including the husband’s parents.
                                                Last edited by Hot Pepsi; 18-10-2017, 15:20.

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                                                  #49
                                                  Yeah, I wouldn't worry too much about that one point, a mate of mine picked it up on FB and said he always tells men or women if he likes something they're wearing or whatever.

                                                  I think it's more about the sort of proprietorial/entitled approach that some men have, that any woman they see is there to be appraised, looks-wise. I used to say that men should carry around a set of score cards they could hold up whenever they saw a woman, in case she had headphones on.

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                                                    #50
                                                    I work in a field that is overwhelmingly female dominated (in numbers - I'd estimate something like 80:20),but - surprise-very male at the top and in its celebrities (such as celebrity is in my world). Recently I have attended a number of female led meetings and discussions about this disparity, and it has been useful and educational to me. At a number of points in these meetings I have felt an urgent desire to contribute to the discussion (I imagined usefully) but in each case decided not to, reasoning that my best contribution was to listen and act in future if there seemed to be a way to do that. In doing so I have also become very conscious of how many men did talk and get involved (again I would estimate attendance at these meetings at something like 80/90:20/10, but female /male contributions at around 50/50. Christ we never fucking shut up do we? Seriously. It's been very eye opening

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