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    Originally posted by Hot Pepsi View Post
    Aside from the gender imbalance issues, which aren’t nothing, this is just appallingly piss poor guest service from BA.

    “You had one job,” as the kids say.
    You'd think that, for an organisation that - several hundred times every day - puts a few hundred people in very close proximity for a few hours, they'll know that this is something that must happen.

    And therefore would make sure that there were systems and processes in place to deal with it, and would be able to do something about it in an intelligent and sympathetic way. And would train their staff to do that.

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      All apologies accepted. Time to move on.

      HP: You would probably be even more shocked if you knew how many others among your friends have been raped. It's not something we tend to bring up in conversation.

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        Originally posted by Femme Folle View Post
        All apologies accepted. Time to move on.

        HP: You would probably be even more shocked if you knew how many others among your friends have been raped. It's not something we tend to bring up in conversation.
        Probably.

        Fortunately, everybody seems to be doing pretty well now, so that’s good. I suspect that they all were able to talk to somebody, even if they couldn’t talk to me.

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          I can't add anything to this thread, other than "I must do better".

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            Originally posted by Toby Gymshorts View Post
            I can't add anything to this thread, other than "I must do better".
            Agree with Toby's sentiments re doing better. Not just this thread, a lot of the coverage on this issue recently has made me think.

            I was online when Bruno made his joke. I thought it was a joke but I immediately smelt the napalm.

            My 18 yo daughter was in Magaluf in the summer. Said she was casually touched up (ie sexually assaulted) regularly by lads in clubs, in the street etc. She, and her pals, dealt with it, didn't like it but seemed to accept it as a norm. WTF! I didn't get abroad until I was early twenties but none of my pals did that, saw that. We, they, didn't do that to girls at school or in College. Ever.

            I'm 53 now and been abroad a lot on holidays with pals or with guys following Scotland. I can only recall one incident when a pal, totally out of character, touched up a girl in Estonia I think. She turned around and punched him in the face. Told him he'd no need to take liberties, she'd have happily talked to him without the assault. I was shocked. He was embarrassed, knew he was wrong, apologised to her. Apologised to us. We were appalled as well.

            Point is, 53 years old, I've witnessed one assault. I'm not saying it's not happening, it clearly is. Serious and casual (as far as any of this can be casual) but I haven't really been aware. People around me aren't doing it. Except of course they are. I spoke today with a woman in my industry, a pal, much younger than me, with whom I have a very good relationship. She told me about a night out where another person in our industry slapped her arse three times He didn't stop until she slapped his face. He couldn't understand why she'd objected. I couldn't understand why someone hadn't stepped in and either calmly explained (mansplained?) to him what he was doing wrong or just hustled him out and slapped him harder. I'm not sure I'd have done that but I'd have definitely backed her up, told him it was unacceptable and asked her what she wanted, if anything, from me. Throwing him out of our company would have been a minimum (IMO). She said other guys just laughed. She dealt with it, she's feisty but she should have had support. In my opinion, I could be wrong, maybe as a man I shouldn't be 'trying to solve the problem'.

            I'm not sure what the fuck to do right now but feel, feel, I'm not sure. I can't believe men don't know that laying your hand on a woman in those circumstances is just not on but they seem to think they can get away with it. Not just uber powerful film producers but inadequate wee tossers as well. I suspect this guy wouldn't have done it if different people were around. The guys who laughed worked with him. Plenty others would have pulled him up (possibly violently) for that. But is that the answer?

            Jesus.

            I suspect like a lot of other guys I'm thinking, I don't do that shit, I don't touch up women, I respect women, I'm not the problem. But I suspect I don't really have a clue. I have no idea what some women go through, some on a daily basis. My default position is to make a joke which is probably wrong although I suspect that the very worst thing that Harvey could experience is people laughing at him. (Well, apart from State Pen). But yeah, I'm not clean either in terms of thinking or talking or not doing enough or a multitude of other shit.

            Some people say men should STFU and listen. Yes, for sure. But I suspect unless men also stand up and say to other men, especially their colleagues and friends* that certain behaviour is not acceptable, it isn't going to change. And that's an inditement (sp?) in itself.




            *If you get to 53 and still have a friend who assaults women mentally or physically then you probably also have a problem.

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              All of that.

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                Amen. After being fired up by Kulkarni invective on Chart Music, I’m ready again to blame Britpop Laddism Loaded culture of the James Brown (not him) Danny Baker Chris Evans/football birds and guitars barely ironic Ben Sherman nightmare for encouraging usually slumming middle class arseholes to become harassing dicks. Like they wanted to rebel against some “new man” trope that barely existed, by acting like they were Michael feckin Caine and who just watched Alfie for the suit porn. Laddism (and the sudden widespread availability of coke) probably set back equality post ironically a good 10 years.

                After issue 1 of Loaded, it was suddenly ok for Lads to act total arseholes. This shit filters down, just like my schoolmates who were big Bon Jovi fans were suddenly dropping refs to “The Roses” and fucking Oasis, so did vague monkey walking comedy Manc hardness and leeryness catch on amongst a certain type of Fife wideo.
                Last edited by Lang Spoon; 19-10-2017, 22:57.

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                  There was a good thread on Twitter about the racialised nature of the harassment and abuse suffered by black women and other WoC, but I can't bloody find it. Unhelpful, I know. It talked about how swiftly 'friendly' comments turn into racial slurs when the woman doesn't respond with the desired pleasingness.

                  Ooh, has my keyboard settled down?

                  Point is, 53 years old, I've witnessed one assault. I'm not saying it's not happening, it clearly is. Serious and casual (as far as any of this can be casual) but I haven't really been aware. People around me aren't doing it.

                  Many (most?) incidents of harassment are out of sight/earshot of others. It's easily done. I'll give you a minor example from the other week - random bloke caught my eye as I was crossing a road, fell into step just behind me, drew level with me and quietly hissed "You alright? Hey? Everything alright?" while staring at me, before wheeling away. Even ten feet away no-one else would have caught this. It's deliberate. I've got a thick skin for stuff like that, but if I'd been getting it since the age of 10 like cis women do, I might not shrug it off so easily.

                  explained (mansplained?)

                  'mansplained' was coined to describe the phenomenon of a man explaining to a woman something she already knows while ignoring her attempts to point out that she knows this stuff and indeed teaches it or whatever. The 'gold star' instance is of a man recommending a book to the woman who wrote it.

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                    Thinking back I know of at least one case of serious sexual assault at my school well pre-Loaded. (Still think mid-late nineties prevailing culture well pernicious but). I wasn’t at the party of course, being far too cool to be at such things age 15. Pretty much every boys there and not a few girls gleefully shared the event to the playground the next week. Evil evil shit. Of course, she was the icky focus of derision in the story.

                    Maybe half the women I know well have talked about some man being horrifically awful in some way. And our own unknowing ignorant ways can be as bad in casually unthinking hurt.
                    Last edited by Lang Spoon; 19-10-2017, 22:44.

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                      Many (most?) incidents of harassment are out of sight/earshot of others.

                      Yes, I believe that's true. Years ago I worked in a small government department. The kind of place where you were on first name terms with everyone. One morning I arrived to see Cathy a young secretary was in tears. I asked what was wrong, she just shook her head and carried on sobbing. I felt useless, flapped my arms a bit and asked if there was anything I could do. She shook her head again, got up and ran to the washroom. I found out later, through the women I worked with, there'd been an "incident" with, Doug, the deputy head of department, an avowed family man of the muscular Christian persuasion. There'd be a dozen reasons why Cathy would have spoken to me about that, or any man, except (I hope) her husband. The point is that this isn't in any way unusual, just the opposite, it's the sort of stuff must happen every fucking day and most of us men are just clueless about it, before, during and after.

                      Anyway Cathy got a transfer to another department, and Doug — who was set to become the next department head — failed to get approval from city council. They had a sub-committee consisting of three female aldermen and two male. Perhaps it was justice or karma, either way many of us were pleased.


                      As it goes I mentioned the "Me Too" page to La Signora. Her response was "Christ I couldn't even count the number of times I've been groped, harrassed, or propositioned." Once again, the men don't know but the little girls (and their Mothers) understand.
                      Last edited by Amor de Cosmos; 19-10-2017, 23:40.

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                        The groping, occasional way-over-the-line comment from somebody at work, and botherer in a bar or coffee shop is the most typical things I hear about.

                        And, for the most part, women seem to be able to get past these fairly quickly, though the cumulative effect is very stressful. Unless they felt physically threatened, it’s like any other really shitty human interaction one might have during a day. At least, that’s how it’s been relayed to me.

                        Of course, some jobs put them in the way of this shit more than others. Women who work at bars where they’re required to show a lot of cleavage are probably more likely to be harrassed than, say, a pediatric oncologist or a nun. But women - and many men - in all lines of work experience it.

                        Stalking is more common than I would have thought. Though I’m not sure where *stalking* begins on on the spectrum between “can’t take a hint” and full on John Hinkley stuff.

                        Anyway. I recommended this talk from a student from a few years ago. It’s mostly about sexual violence on American university campuses, but it’s probably applicable anywhere.
                        https://youtu.be/Msqj-v2tlTw

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                          This is not new. From family experience I can say this was happening in the 1930s. Men, well, some men, are starting to listen now, that is the difference. And, for all its faults, social media has provided an outlet for people - who were otherwise silenced by male dominated publishing and broadcasting outlets - to tell their stories if they wish to.

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                            https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-knees-comment

                            One of the Labour party's shining lights, Clive Lewis, has been criticised and now apologised for a comment made at a fringe event last month. There's a video to show the context - a young man from the audience had come on stage to keep score in whatever it was they were doing, knelt down, and Lewis said "Get on your knees, b****."

                            Stella Creasy said: “It’s not OK. Even if it’s meant as a joke, reinforces menace that men have the physical power to force compliance.”

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                              Originally posted by Uncle Ethan View Post
                              This is not new. From family experience I can say this was happening in the 1930s. Men, well, some men, are starting to listen now, that is the difference. And, for all its faults, social media has provided an outlet for people - who were otherwise silenced by male dominated publishing and broadcasting outlets - to tell their stories if they wish to.
                              It's also provided a voice, and a chance to organize, for "menanists" and other assorted human garbage.* So, we might just be about breaking even.


                              *I believe everyone is redeemable and people who are fully of anger and resentment and a desire to hurt other people are, to some extent, victims of a fucked up society. But, you now, they're awful and are making life worse for a lot of people who did nothing at all to deserve it except ask for equality and fairness.

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                                I'm glad that he apologised. It's notable that the three feminist women who were present at the event offer contrasting opinions to the two who weren't, Creasy and Harman, who will have had their own reasons for piling in.

                                But I don't want to make an issue of that here.

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                                  I don't want to go on about it either, but the people brushing it off as bantz etc. are annoying me far more than Clive Lewis, who has apologised, fair enough.

                                  One of the funniest/more bizarre defences I saw (made directly to me, on Facebook) was that Blaxploitation films, where "bitch" was used routinely, were probably part of Clive's culture when growing up, and I should examine my white privilege before criticising. This person was entirely serious.

                                  I guess he's a more complicated man than I thought.

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                                    What patronizing cringeworthy shite. Some folk need to take a good hard look at themselves and how they get tangled up in thickets of bullshit. Taggart was part of my culture while growing up, so I habitually plot elaborate murder schemes with 5 or 6 potential suspects.

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                                      Lewis born in 1971 so was still in the crib when Shaft came out, and I don't think lads being brought up by single dads in Northampton were the target audience.

                                      The bantz excuse is Blokey tone deaf male privilege which ignores how many women relive that phrase in their nightmares.

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                                        It's as bad directed to a man. Even if the man it's directed to isn't bothered, it still makes a joke of male rape or dominance. (I also had people trying to explain consensual S&M to me.)

                                        Labour representatives should do better, in public or semi-private. As he's acknowledged.

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                                          Yeah.

                                          Not as bad as this mind: https://twitter.com/SocialistVoice/s...54879361236992. I wonder if Nusrat Ghani will call for parliament to debate that.

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                                            I should stress this isn't whataboutery, I agree completely with MsD and Lewis is right to apologise.

                                            I just find the Tory opportunism and hypocrisy even more nauseating.

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                                              That's pretty desperate stuff from Socialist Voice there. As pointed out in the comments, it looks like "leadership pitch".

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                                                They seem to have deleted it. I read it the same as them, but leadership pitch is more plausible I suppose.

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                                                  It does sound like 'leadership pitch' to me. And of course that ignores the crassness of engaging in whataboutery with regards to Lewis' comment, which doesn't change even if a Tory has also used similar language.

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                                                    The original tweet by Scott Nelson is still there. It does seem implausible that someone would say that while sitting next to his female party leader.

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