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    "Me, too".

    I reluctantly did the cut and paste of this, without adding any detail but now I'm glad I did.

    For those of you who don't do Facebook, this is the post:

    "Me too.
    If all the women who have been sexually harassed or assaulted wrote "Me too" as a status, we might give people a sense of the magnitude of the problem.
    Please copy/paste."

    That's it. The idea is to spread awareness. These attacks (these behaviours) are the shameful secret of the predator, not the victim. If it makes more people speak up in public or in private, that's all to the good.

    It's heartening to see the solidarity between women (and yes, men can post it too, if they want to), saddening when you see if from younger women (one woman spoke of her sadness at seeing her daughter post it) and really quite sickening (for me) to see accusations of attention-seeking, "patting oneself on the back", anti-men hysteria etc. mostly from men but from a few women too. I've held my tongue today, as one of the people moaning the most about it posts on Facebook every detail of her life, from her shoes to her dinner to who she met last night. Maybe we're taking Likes away from her.

    I don't really need to tell anyone here that if you see someone post "me, too", you should think a bit about what it's taken to post that.

    #2
    Thanks for that, MsD. There have been some heartbreaking, brave, important contributions - which has been a slautory reminder of how prevalent the sexual exploitation of the powerless almost always women by the powerful- almost always men,

    and Me Too, too
    Last edited by Nefertiti2; 17-10-2017, 15:02.

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      #3
      This is eye-opening and very saddening.

      It sounds trite but sometimes the way people react to things reveals more about their world view than any truth about the matter to hand.

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        #4
        Not about me, but "Me Too".

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          #5
          That's it. The idea is to spread awareness. These attacks (these behaviours) are the shameful secret of the predator, not the victim. If it makes more people speak up in public or in private, that's all to the good.

          This. A million times this.

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            #6
            A friend of mine posted this

            "For all the women standing up posting #MeToo - there will still be some not posting at the fear of not wanting to revisit or remember their past.

            Respect that."

            Not sure if that's her way of saying #MeToo and no way I can ask.

            Seen at least one other friend post it.

            It's sad.

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              #7
              Out of interest, what do people think about men posting #metoo. I was initially very against it as they seemed to be of the "Whitelivesmatter" type of trolling. However, many people have suggested that many men have been encouraged to post about being sexually abused.

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                #8
                Is #MeToo supposed to be about women who've been sexually assaulted, sexually harassed, or sort of anything like that?

                Either way, it seems like an important 'thing', but I'm wary of it both becoming a 'white lives matter too' thing, but also a 'hey, this isn't your thing it's our thing', which tends to happen a lot.

                I dunno.

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by WOM View Post
                  Is #MeToo supposed to be about women who've been sexually assaulted, sexually harassed, or sort of anything like that?

                  Either way, it seems like an important 'thing', but I'm wary of it both becoming a 'white lives matter too' thing, but also a 'hey, this isn't your thing it's our thing', which tends to happen a lot.

                  I dunno.
                  I think men doing it were saying they were victims/survivors. It's not so uncommon. It's not a "white lives matter" thing at all.

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                    #10
                    Oh, there has definitely been that element on FB. Maybe not so much troll posting #metoo (although there has been one or two) but generally challenging the whole thing. As far as I can see, there have been three reactions. The trolling "#alllivesmatter" posts, the dopey ones that are similar to Michael Douglas putting out Disclosure and the genuine ones from men who have been sexually abused and harrased.

                    Due to their being a confusion between all three, I think that male posting about sexual abuse would definitely raise awareness on this little publicised issue but not now as it blurs the focus of #metoo. This isn't 'just' about sexual abuse and harassment, it's about sexual abuse and harassment being carried out, condoned, defended and perpetuated by men in and using their positions of power - real or perceived. This power is institutionalised in our patriarchal society. There is an element of that in sexual abuse cases on men, I am sure, but not to the same scale, I feel.

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                      #11
                      As I kept saying on FB, all we were really doing was asking men to examine their male privilege and the extent to which they are oblivious to what goes on, sometimes. Of course not wanting to exclude men who've been victimised - or any man who can STFU for just a minute when women are telling you something, and talking to each other. It was very exasperating, trying to talk about rape culture and having all these men with their hurty feelings butting in "but we're not all monsters! this is so divisive! this is what the ruling class want you to focus on, IDPOL bollocks!" and then one having the cheek (or total lack of self-awareness) to say "it's all mee, meeee, meeee".

                      I really have nothing but compassion for any man posting #metoo (and meaning it). Although it is meant to be about women, anyone who feels able to talk about abuse, who couldn't previously, deserves support.
                      Last edited by MsD; 17-10-2017, 20:56.

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                        #12
                        Yeah, saw loads of that.

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                          #13
                          One of the problems I've seen on the "me too" stuff is guys responding trying to get into the stories or details. It's all well meant, from the men I've seen. But very little respect for how much it takes to say me too, in an environment that's safe to leave out the details. There's just too much "you know you can share with me" stuff that seems to miss the point that the details shouldn't be shared in this context.

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by MsD View Post
                            As I kept saying on FB, all we were really doing was asking men to examine their male privilege and the extent to which they are oblivious to what goes on, sometimes. Of course not wanting to exclude men who've been victimised - or any man who can STFU for just a minute when women are telling you something, and talking to each other. It was very exasperating, trying to talk about rape culture and having all these men with their hurty feelings butting in "but we're not all monsters! this is so divisive! this is what the ruling class want you to focus on, IDPOL bollocks!" and then one having the cheek (or total lack of self-awareness) to say "it's all mee, meeee, meeee".

                            I really have nothing but compassion for any man posting #metoo (and meaning it). Although it is meant to be about women, anyone who feels able to talk about abuse, who couldn't previously, deserves support.
                            Yeah.

                            Some of the same patriarchal structures and concentration of wealth and power protect the predators that hurt other men and children, many of whom grow up to be men with serious psychological injuries. And the shame associated with that is a bit different than it might be for women because of toxic ideas of manhood and what not.

                            Maybe that's conflating too many different kinds of abuse such that it obscures the message people are trying draw out of the Weinstein situation about abuse of women in a professional context in particular. But it would be bad if male survivors - especially those who were abused as kids - felt like their experience is somehow less important.

                            Most of those predators are male too, of course.

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                              #15
                              This Twitter thread is worth reading.

                              Really, the best thing men should do is shut the fuck up and listen for a change, and tell other men to shut the fuck up and listen. And stop, if they're harassers or abusers.

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                                #16
                                Yes, and part of the problem is that women are socialised to be people-pleasers, so there we were trying to soothe men's hurt feelings "it's not YOU, darling, there there", taking time away (as usual) from what should have been our conversation.

                                I think everyone here gets it, from your responses, so excuse me "us"ing and "them"ing there, it's just that this is an unusual chance to hear women talk about this.

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                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Bruno
                                  you mean like this?

                                  Ha. I wish, actually.

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                                    #18
                                    There's a 'Men against violence against women' event in Cardiff soon where men are encouraged to wear a pair of high heels (or other "women's shoes") and "#Walkamileinhershoes"

                                    I felt like it was a terrible idea. It's a man who is the main contact for it and it has that feel of a man's idea. I showed the advert to my wife who went ballistic about it and a female co-worker who went slightly less ballistic but showed it to my other female office colleague because it was so stupid.

                                    I agree with the idea that men should just STFU and listen to women. And not try to fix the problem for them.

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                                      #19
                                      This week has been truly exhausting. This is going to sound glib and trite and it's not either of those things, but I really don't understand how women survive harassment on such a systematic basis. It's easy to say sexism lives and is around us, but holy crap, the cornucopia of #metoo's on my feed, and the absolutely astonishing last 12 hours in journalism* have really pushed me to the end of my tether.


                                      * A facebook post appeared out of nowhere accusing Sam Kriss of some truly awful stuff. Kriss later admitted it was true, in a pretty woeful apology. The Centrist Dad/TERF wing of Twitter, which has been gunning for Kriss and some of the other pro-Corbyn journos for some time, then basically hounded Abi Wilkinson off of Twitter in a "DENOUNCE YOUR FRIEND SAM KRISS" type way. Then Marie Le Conte basically decided to share a story about how a big-time woke married politics journalist is actually a serial creeper/groper.

                                      And then Dawn Foster got her arse grabbed at the St Vincent show. See? Exhausting.

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                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by MsD View Post
                                        Yes, and part of the problem is that women are socialised to be people-pleasers, so there we were trying to soothe men's hurt feelings "it's not YOU, darling, there there", taking time away (as usual) from what should have been our conversation.

                                        I think everyone here gets it, from your responses, so excuse me "us"ing and "them"ing there, it's just that this is an unusual chance to hear women talk about this.
                                        Certainly nobody should have to spend time reassuring men of the “not all men” shit.

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                                          #21
                                          Btw HP I get and agree with your point about male on male rape but am too tired to add anything now. We're all comrades in this.

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                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
                                            There's a 'Men against violence against women' event in Cardiff soon where men are encouraged to wear a pair of high heels (or other "women's shoes") and "#Walkamileinhershoes"

                                            I felt like it was a terrible idea. It's a man who is the main contact for it and it has that feel of a man's idea. I showed the advert to my wife who went ballistic about it and a female co-worker who went slightly less ballistic but showed it to my other female office colleague because it was so stupid.

                                            I agree with the idea that men should just STFU and listen to women. And not try to fix the problem for them.
                                            The students do that here and it’s well-received.

                                            Given that men are the problem, why shouldn’t men try to change the attitudes of other men?

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                                              #23
                                              The "wearing a pair of high heels" bit seems super tone-deaf. Maybe men who see women as cartoon characters are not best-placed to change the attitudes of other men.

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                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Fussbudget View Post
                                                The "wearing a pair of high heels" bit seems super tone-deaf. Maybe men who see women as cartoon characters are not best-placed to change the attitudes of other men.
                                                "Boy, I really got to say, you ladies sure go through a lot. How do you walk in these shoes?"

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                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by Flynnie View Post
                                                  This week has been truly exhausting. This is going to sound glib and trite and it's not either of those things, but I really don't understand how women survive harassment on such a systematic basis. It's easy to say sexism lives and is around us, but holy crap, the cornucopia of #metoo's on my feed, and the absolutely astonishing last 12 hours in journalism* have really pushed me to the end of my tether.


                                                  * A facebook post appeared out of nowhere accusing Sam Kriss of some truly awful stuff. Kriss later admitted it was true, in a pretty woeful apology. The Centrist Dad/TERF wing of Twitter, which has been gunning for Kriss and some of the other pro-Corbyn journos for some time, then basically hounded Abi Wilkinson off of Twitter in a "DENOUNCE YOUR FRIEND SAM KRISS" type way. Then Marie Le Conte basically decided to share a story about how a big-time woke married politics journalist is actually a serial creeper/groper.

                                                  And then Dawn Foster got her arse grabbed at the St Vincent show. See? Exhausting.
                                                  A different online forum we have in common has been pretty depressing today.

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