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    Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
    Stats (a bit rushed so I stand to be corrected):

    Iceland are relegated and Ukraine promoted. Germany, Croatia and Poland are probably down.

    Still 100%: Portugal, Belgium, Ukraine, Bosnia, Finland, Georgia

    0%: San Marino, Lithuania, Slovakia, N Ireland, Iceland

    Biggest positive surprises: Gibraltar, Luxembourg

    Shittest displays by recent (post-2014) finals tournament participants: Germany, Iceland, Croatia (so far), Poland, N Ireland, ROI, Albania, Sweden
    Poland are down already - at best they can draw level on points with Italy but did worse on head to head results.

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      Originally posted by Ray de Galles View Post
      Not for your opponents last night either, though it's a different situation obviously.

      This leads me to ask something I've long wondered, how is the LOI perceived by Irish football supporters in general? Does the level of focus on the English leagues in Ireland see the LOI equated with "non-league" (not by supporters of it's clubs, obviously) as is often the case with the Welsh Premier League?
      Yeah, pretty much.

      It's a shame, because historically the Irish players who stayed in Ireland to finish school (or longer) weren't held back in their development. On the contrary, they can sometimes turn out to be the Irish players that are the most complete (i.e., master technical control, positioning and tactical nous). The English development system has a tendency to chew up young players or develop them into one dimensional payers. Robbie Keane went to England aged 15, and turned out to be a very good striker, but also a very one dimensional player.

      Roy Keane left Ireland when he was 19, Wes Hoolahan 23, Seamus Coleman 21.

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        Originally posted by Reginald Christ
        Well, that was as grim as expected. Ireland are a colossal waste of time.

        Agree with elguapo4 that even sacking O’Neill won’t do much as the players aren’t good enough. Also agree with AP that if Ireland are condemned to lose to superior teams they might as well try to play attacking football. But we’ve all been here before, several times. We have to break out of this boom and bust cycle where we

        a) appoint an astute, experienced manager whose best work is well behind them
        b) qualify for a tournament by being organised and tough to beat, usually with a heroic 1-0 victory over a major nation
        c) stink out the place when we get there
        d) give the manager a new contract immediately before the qualifiers for the next tournament
        e) watch in horror as it all falls apart
        f) resume from step a)

        Someone on Twitter asked how many genuinely entertaining games Ireland had been involved in since the 2002 World Cup and the responses don’t make for encouraging reading. We just don’t play good football. We haven’t for a long time. And we’ll be moving in ever decreasing circles if we don’t learn the lessons of campaigns like this one and reform our football infrastructure. Will it ever happen? It doesn’t feel like it will.
        How can you tell if the players are good enough? Our last two managers have differed in one major respect. Trap picked his team in 2008 and didn't really change it, O'Neill tells players half an hour before the match who is playing and where. The thing they have in common is neither of them gave the players any instructions, or had any vague plans about what to do when we had the ball. Of course they look like morons. It's like gathering together a bunch of ballet Dancers, and sending them out on stage 12 times a year with the instructions to make a Ballet. Of course they're going to look like fucking idiots.

        That thing about the O'Brien money is spot on. It means that Sunday independent Life Magazine's John Delaney can just go out and hire someone famous and claim that he's done his job, before he goes back to his mid-life Crisis. Even if it brings us managers with literally no idea of how to be a football manager in the 21st century, or how to manage the national team of a small country. I don't think it's any exaggeration, but most League of Ireland Managers would make a better fist of running the Irish team than Trap or MONKeano, simply because they are used to getting the most out of limited resources, but also most of them are still vaguely connected to the trends and the ebb and flow of european football. There's a lot more playing the ball out from the back, and pre-planned moves in a league of Ireland game, than in a decade of Ireland games.

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          Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
          How can you tell if the players are good enough? Our last two managers have differed in one major respect. Trap picked his team in 2008 and didn't really change it, O'Neill tells players half an hour before the match who is playing and where. The thing they have in common is neither of them gave the players any instructions, or had any vague plans about what to do when we had the ball. Of course they look like morons. It's like gathering together a bunch of ballet Dancers, and sending them out on stage 12 times a year with the instructions to make a Ballet. Of course they're going to look like fucking idiots.
          This is it. We have had a full decade of players being given no tactical plan and hearing the manager mouth off in the press about how limited the squad is, and how in their day they won European cups.

          And the managers got paid millions to do it.

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            @ Sean D: Stephen Kenny would be a novel and positive choice, but if he, or Crues' Stanley Baxter or whoever the Oswestry supremo is got the international gig it would be surprising, and sadly likely to be widely ridiculed by the media and fans.

            @ Ray dG: the Irish League is clearly a lower standard than its Southern neighbor (probably about English D6 standard). Ditto the Welsh Premier from the little I see of it. If not all the teams/ players are full-time, it's effectively a part-time League. In NI at least, the 'bigger' teams have support outside their home areas- factors for this are fans moving out to suburban towns, sectarian divides but mainly that Linfield broadly dominated for decades (I know that doesn't really answer yr question, but maybe a little context)

            @Satch D: expectations differ of course- I'd describe NI's efforts so far as disappointing and sometimes chaotic but hardly shitty. As above we created loads of chances, the goals will come
            Last edited by Duncan Gardner; 17-10-2018, 13:11.

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              Yeah, there was an element with that with Brian Kerr who, like Kenny, never made it as a pro-footballer.

              Kerr was, of course, replaced by a former pro-footballer who played at the highest levels.

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                Originally posted by Duncan Gardner View Post
                @ Sean D: Stephen Kenny would be a novel and positive choice, but if he, or Crues' Stanley Baxter or whoever the Oswestry supremo is got the international gig it would be surprising, and sadly likely to be widely ridiculed by the media and fans.
                Oh, I'm sure that would be the case - especially with the latter as CPD Franchise's existence is such a divisive issue in Wales.

                Interestingly, the man many believe is the most influential figure in the relative renaissance of the Welsh national side - Coleman and Giggs' assistant manager Osian Roberts - has eight years in charge of Porthmadog as his sole club managerial experience.

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                  There's previous in the case of "Kenny for Ireland " in the case of Eoin Hand who took over in the early 80s after a successful spell as Limerick manager.
                  Hand was probably the unluckiest ever Ireland manager (he seemed to have goals dodgily disallowed in every major away match), he was also a manager who liked to play attacking football but he was also allegedly undermined by the likes of Brady, O'Leary and Lawrenson, all players that his successor Jack Charlton was quick to let know who's boss.

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                    Originally posted by Duncan Gardner View Post
                    ...whoever the Oswestry supremo is.
                    Scott Ruscoe - only know his name because he was briefly linked with the Wrexham job before Ricketts got it. It's nothing new - every time we have a vacancy, it seems the Oswestry Franchise manager's name will be in the hat or the back page of the Leader.

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                      I think you both underestimate how popular and respected Stephen Kenny is, Also how good he is at talking. He's not a glorious one man soap opera like either O'Neill or Keane, and he's not this bizarre sort of Football missionary from the fifties like Trap, but I think the time has come for us to move away from that sort of thing. The Job he's done at Dundalk stands in good Comparison with Michael O'Neill, and Michael O'Neill would be a fantastic manager for the republic of Ireland.

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                        Originally posted by elguapo4 View Post
                        There's previous in the case of "Kenny for Ireland " in the case of Eoin Hand who took over in the early 80s after a successful spell as Limerick manager.
                        Hand was probably the unluckiest ever Ireland manager (he seemed to have goals dodgily disallowed in every major away match), he was also a manager who liked to play attacking football but he was also allegedly undermined by the likes of Brady, O'Leary and Lawrenson, all players that his successor Jack Charlton was quick to let know who's boss.
                        Hand was unfortunate in that we were drawn in qualification groups with some of the most prolific match fixers of the 80's.

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                          Yeah, from the videos I have seen, I would rank the 80-82 Ireland team up there with any other Ireland team.

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                            Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
                            I think you both underestimate how popular and respected Stephen Kenny is
                            Who's underestimating him? The criticism is of lazy pundits and ill-informed fans, not of Kenny.

                            Also how good he is at talking
                            I've no idea how compelling his dressing room or press conference repartee is. If EPL managers don't take him seriously, sounding like Michael D and Oscar W combined will hardly be relevant

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                              Don't know what the opinion of English managers would have to do with it.

                              They can no longer refuse to release players like they used to.

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                                Originally posted by Ray de Galles View Post
                                Interestingly, the man many believe is the most influential figure in the relative renaissance of the Welsh national side - Coleman and Giggs' assistant manager Osian Roberts
                                Oh, he is still there then? Good.

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                                  Who's underestimating him? The criticism is of lazy pundits and ill-informed fans, not of Kenny.

                                  I don't think you're underestimating him as a manager, I think you might be underestimating how he is perceived in the republic. The other thing is that a lot of the squad have spent time in the league of Ireland, and a lot of our pundits have a) either played in the league of Ireland or b) are now coaching in the league of Ireland. The big topic for discussion at the moment is that we need to forget about sending kids to england, simply because they aren't getting into the same academies that they used to. It's something Michael O'Neill was referring to when he was saying that when he took over there were 6 players in the NI squad who had been at Old trafford, whereas now there were only two, and no-one was getting there. It's exactly the same for the republic. I think there's a young goalkeeper at Liverpool, but that's about the limit of it.

                                  The other thing is that over the last 20 years, primarily through the GAA and Rugby have gotten used to the idea that an irish person can be a good manager, even if they've primarily worked in Ireland. Also Everyone is aware of Michael O'Neill, and how good a manager he is, even if he only ever managed at Brechin City and Shamrock rovers. And quite frankly at this point we're desperate enough to try anything.

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                                    Brian Kerr was very well received when he was appointed. Unfortunately McMick had poisoned the well.


                                    Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
                                    I don't think you're underestimating him as a manager, I think you might be underestimating how he is perceived in the republic. The other thing is that a lot of the squad have spent time in the league of Ireland, and a lot of our pundits have a) either played in the league of Ireland or b) are now coaching in the league of Ireland. The big topic for discussion at the moment is that we need to forget about sending kids to england, simply because they aren't getting into the same academies that they used to. It's something Michael O'Neill was referring to when he was saying that when he took over there were 6 players in the NI squad who had been at Old trafford, whereas now there were only two, and no-one was getting there. It's exactly the same for the republic. I think there's a young goalkeeper at Liverpool, but that's about the limit of it.
                                    Yep, and Irish players staying in Ireland don't necessarily fare badly. Actually, they've been our best players.

                                    So keep them in Ireland until at least 19/20. And then, when they decide to leave, try and get them to go to France, Holland, Germany, Spain. Anywhere but England.

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                                      Originally posted by anton pulisov View Post
                                      Don't know what the opinion of English managers would have to do with it...They can no longer refuse to release players like they used to
                                      Isn't that a bit naive? Those managers (and as we've seen recently, agents, owners etc) are quite likely to influence whether players turn up for internationals. Even if they're not quite as openly dismissive as Big Ron used to be.

                                      Irish youngsters finishing school/ college and then going beyond England would be encouraging. Are there many examples of it actually happening? Widest travelled recently is probably Lafferty (brief spells in Switzerland, Italy and Turkey).

                                      Originally posted by Berbaslug
                                      The big topic for discussion at the moment is that we need to forget about sending kids to england, simply because they aren't getting into the same academies that they used to
                                      Point taken that kids from Ireland (or anywhere) now struggle much more to make it in England, because of the global market for players.

                                      Not fully getting your point about O'Neill. His squad regulars Jonny and Corry Evans and Cathcart all had long spells as teenagers at ManU, as did fringe and current U-21 players (Luke McCullough, Jordan Thompson). Then there are ringers (Norwood, Saville).

                                      More importantly, O'Neill's reputation comes from relative success in the 2016 and 2018 series, not from Shamrock Rovers. When he won 1 game of the first 20 with NI he was widely derided as out of his depth.

                                      As Reg suggests, a lot of fans of international football in Ireland fans wouldn't recognise the Crusaders or Cliftonville manager in the street. I doubt it's much different for Dundalk or Cork.
                                      Last edited by Duncan Gardner; 17-10-2018, 16:32.

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                                        DG, the bigger issue is players being told by clubs to declare for england, so everyone gets a big pay day. Michael Keane declared for england, played two games, and suddenly he was a £30 million england international. One of those disgusting shits in charge of West Ham told Pellegrini that it was his job to get Declan Rice into the England Team.

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                                          Well MONKeano didn't do very well in that department by fielding injured players and getting into arguments with EPL managers about it.

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                                            Berba- I know, was just answering Pulisov's point (ie that the clubs can still dictate).

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                                              Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
                                              DG, the bigger issue is players being told by clubs to declare for england, so everyone gets a big pay day. Michael Keane declared for england, played two games, and suddenly he was a £30 million england international. One of those disgusting shits in charge of West Ham told Pellegrini that it was his job to get Declan Rice into the England Team.
                                              I'm pretty sure everyone and his dog will be telling Declan Rice to hold out for England if he can, not just those with a vested interest such as the West Ham hierarchy. To be honest I wouldn't be that surprised if Martin O'Neill had given him that advice.

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                                                More importantly, O'Neill's reputation comes from relative success in the 2016 and 2018 series, not from Shamrock Rovers. When he won 1 game of the first 20 with NI he was widely derided as out of his depth.

                                                As Reg suggests, a lot of fans of international football in Ireland fans wouldn't recognise the Crusaders or Cliftonville manager in the street. I doubt it's much different for Dundalk or Cork.


                                                nah, getting to the group stages of the Europa league with Shamrock Rovers made him pretty famous here too. It's difficult to understate how surprised and impressed people were around here. The same is true for Kenny. Sure it took time to find his feet with Northern Ireland, but they were a disastrous mess, and it took time to knit it all together, to become considerably more than the sum of their parts. Anyway even if he struggled initially, people primarily focus on the success he eventually had. The important bit here is that O'Neill makes it considerably more difficult to make the League of Ireland argument against someone.

                                                And the Other O'neill is killing our fucking will to live.

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                                                  I rediscovered the will to live since I stopped watching MON's Ireland on the telly after the Copenhagen debacle.

                                                  It has been quite liberating.

                                                  I have the Livescore app telling me that Cyrus Christie is anchoring our midfield, that the opposition has 60% possession, and that we have 0 shots on target.

                                                  There's not really any need to watch it. It really is similar to paint drying. Just let it be, it'll be dry when you come back.

                                                  Comment


                                                    Originally posted by Ray de Galles View Post
                                                    Not for your opponents last night either, though it's a different situation obviously.

                                                    This leads me to ask something I've long wondered, how is the LOI perceived by Irish football supporters in general? Does the level of focus on the English leagues in Ireland see the LOI equated with "non-league" (not by supporters of it's clubs, obviously) as is often the case with the Welsh Premier League?
                                                    I think referring to the League of Ireland as non-league is a little harsh. Most players who go from England to Ireland (those in recent years anyway) have played League football. Further to that, most players going the other way invariably go to League 1 or above. Add into that the fact that Dundalk and Shamrock Rovers have (fairly) recently played in the group stages of the Europa league statistically quantifies the quality of some of the football as better than non-league.

                                                    My experience (2 years as season ticket holder at Pats) was that the perception of it depended on who you spoke to. People who took an active interest were generally pleased with the quality of the better sides (I began following LoI in 2013) and those who took no interest dismissed it as rubbish (similar to fans who only follow the PL in England). If I had to place it, I'd say the best teams would probably fit in at the top end of the Conference and League 2 on a weekly level.

                                                    I have followed Welsh football since last season when I arrived in Cardiff and that definitely has a more English non-league feel about it. The average gate is around 350 whereas in Ireland the top sides get over 1,000 easy. Further to that more of the Irish sides employ players on FT contracts during the season. Most Welsh people I have spoken to have zero interest in the Welsh league. It is very enjoyable though.

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