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The Downfall of Harvey Weinstein?

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    Trump could admit to defamation or some watered down version of it without conceding the allegations?

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      Last night at FISH we talked to the kids about sexual harassment, etc.

      We, the other two adults in our small group and I, were disturbed by how poorly educated even these highly-educated kids were on the issue and how a few of them have already internalized some serious bullshit about the topic, either from their conservative parents or just from the atmosphere. One girl in particular clearly has been harassed and yet she seemed to want to downplay the size of the transgression by whomever and up-play (is that a word) her strength and ability to handle herself.

      We tried to redirect where where we could, but it's a small group discussion so, you know - confidentiality, no trying to 'fix' the other person, safe space, etc, etc.

      Another interesting thing that I got out of it was that one of my fellow leaders who is a woman told us that she was assaulted and groped numerous times in college (and maybe other times too) and yet it wasn't until she had a daughter that she really took the time to really examine her memories and feelings about all of that and say "this aggression will not stand." Previously, according to her, she tended to want to say "oh, it wasn't that bad" or "maybe he's right and I'm remembering it wrong." These are her words.

      I understand that we're all rightly sick of men justifying their concern for women by "I have a daughter" (or sister, wife, mother, etc). But even women who have gone through this shit may struggle to really face the horror of it. Either because they've been conditioned to care to much about men's feelings and/or because it's just too awful to deal with. We can gaslight ourselves sometimes.

      The other leader in the group is man with two daughters and he too said that changed his outlook. But for him it was just more about the urgency of the problem. Not that he didn't think it was urgent before, but he's a youth and mission pastor in a progressive church so he has 1,000 urgent issues on his plate all of the time. The latest avalanche of stories just pushed it to the top of his pile, I guess.



      I also learned that people who deal with domestic violence issues, child abuse, and rape are pushing to replace the "no means no" mantra with "yes means yes." To teach kids from the very beginning that the default state for everyone is that they have total authority over their own body that nobody can override. So instead of just pressing your luck with somebody until they get so uncomfortable they have to say something, the idea is that everyone just takes it for granted that it's not OK unless you discuss it first. This includes teaching kids that they don't have to kiss grandma if they don't want to, I guess. That will lead to some issues, I'm sure, but they're issues that need to be dealt with.

      That goes against everything we learn from movies - including rom coms made for women - and what we learn from our friends in school. We were always taught that you just had to "make a move" and try to kiss the girl, etc, but do it slowly enough so that she could reject you - "give you the Heisman" as it was called - and then everyone could feel awkward and ashamed together. Asking in advance was considered unsexy or "breaking the mood." I've even heard women claim this.

      That's a really shitty system. When Oberlin or one of those schools made it a policy that people had to get express verbal consent for every bit of touching (not written, as it was later lampooned), they were widely mocked by the right-wing media, stand-up comics, etc. But it's actually a much better social convention.

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        That's a thoughtful piece, Reed. It's great (and, as you say, necessary) that people are starting to talk about this. Hopefully it doesn't fade away with the news cycle.

        I'd just like to add that the either/ors you discussed in the group can be taught as both...ands. Coping with aggressions – the need to survive – is always the priority, so developing resilience really is valuable. If you can recognise as much, without stigmatising anyone who isn't as resilient as they need or would like to be, and without downplaying the impact that harassment can have on even the strongest ... you can see the size of the problem!

        Likewise, while I understand and support the thinking behind 'yes means yes', it needs to be understood alongside 'no means no', rather than replacing it, not least because it emphasises the right to change one's mind during an activity. "I thought I'd like this but it turns out I don't" is one of the hardest things to communicate IME; it goes against the grain of everything that is expected of us (open-mindedness, straightforwardness, 'knowing' our sexuality, pleasing others, and so on).

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          Not to detract from the more important conversation, but the reason why the Zervos suit would be settled is that 45 can prolong it for years (especially while in office), thereby driving up Zervos' costs and testing her patience. There's also a real chance that he will now concoct some bogus counter-claim that she will have to refute.

          This kind of crap has been his primarily legal game plan for years.

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            Originally posted by laverte View Post
            That's a thoughtful piece, Reed. It's great (and, as you say, necessary) that people are starting to talk about this. Hopefully it doesn't fade away with the news cycle.

            I'd just like to add that the either/ors you discussed in the group can be taught as both...ands. Coping with aggressions – the need to survive – is always the priority, so developing resilience really is valuable. If you can recognise as much, without stigmatising anyone who isn't as resilient as they need or would like to be, and without downplaying the impact that harassment can have on even the strongest ... you can see the size of the problem!

            Likewise, while I understand and support the thinking behind 'yes means yes', it needs to be understood alongside 'no means no', rather than replacing it, not least because it emphasises the right to change one's mind during an activity. "I thought I'd like this but it turns out I don't" is one of the hardest things to communicate IME; it goes against the grain of everything that is expected of us (open-mindedness, straightforwardness, 'knowing' our sexuality, pleasing others, and so on).
            Yes, all of this!

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              Originally posted by Hot Pepsi View Post
              One girl in particular clearly has been harassed and yet she seemed to want to downplay the size of the transgression by whomever and up-play (is that a word) her strength and ability to handle herself. .
              Looks like she was asserting her agency. I think there is merit in acknowledging that, without that mitigating the sexual harassment which requires that agency.

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                Aled Jones, of all people.

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                  Wanking On The Air?

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                    It seems like the woman who accused Franken of his indecency has now got a book deal with Sinclair Media.

                    And worked for right-wing radio.

                    And has pictures all over the net, touching up men.

                    But, Franken admitted it, so there's that.

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                      Yes. All of that too.

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                        Charlie Rose... are you shittin' me

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                          https://twitter.com/glynnmacn/status/932733897015783424

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                            He says he thought it was mutual. Apparently he would walk stark naked out of the shower when he had visitors. Mutual... Yeah....

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                              Has that ever been a winning gambit for a man? EVER?

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                                I mean... like... really? Just who are these people? Don't they have kids, friends, neighbours... Other human beings they genuinely care about, and might care about them?
                                Last edited by Amor de Cosmos; 21-11-2017, 02:49.

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                                  Apropos of nothing, this made me think of this, which is excellent.

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                                    This sums it all up well. Though really no one should need to be told.

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                                      I don't think he got the Kimmel thing. The point was that they flogged the same tired dick joke for the whole time. That was the joke.

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                                        Doyle's a curmudgeon. Getting it wasn't even part of the equation.

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                                          If Doyle's a curmudgeon I must be Ebenezer Scrooge. Still the pickings at the G&M are getting slim, they seems to be letting their most interesting columnists go.

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                                            I may be wrong, but I do not think that the women of the world are asking for no more dick jokes on TV, not least of all because some of the best ones are written by women. To suggest so spectacularly misses the point.
                                            It's about context.

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                                              Matt Lauer today. Wow.

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                                                Originally posted by Amor de Cosmos View Post
                                                If Doyle's a curmudgeon I must be Ebenezer Scrooge. Still the pickings at the G&M are getting slim, they seems to be letting their most interesting columnists go.
                                                Yet Peggy hangs on...

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                                                  Indeed. The old man's clearly dressing more to the right these days. Just what's needed.

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                                                    Originally posted by Amor de Cosmos View Post
                                                    Indeed. The old man's clearly dressing more to the right these days. Just what's needed.
                                                    ??

                                                    I always thought Matt Lauer was a smug, overrated, dick.

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