Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Downfall of Harvey Weinstein?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts



    Mr Batali, yesterday.

    Comment


      I sort of feel that "disappointing his fans" is not the top priority in the list of apologies he needs to be making

      Comment


        Originally posted by WOM View Post
        I think if you were casting dozens of 'large' roles and heard that one or two people on your long list were 'pains in the ass' from a respected, long-career producer, you wouldn't think too hard about striking them off. I hear 'hearsay' evidence about people in my trade all the time. It's called your reputation, and it usually precedes you.
        Yeah, making a movie is hard, and you don't want to make it harder by hiring someone who might make it harder. a quick flick through Easy Riders Raging bulls, will reveal that all the best stories are involve directors, or actors or actresses who are combining Serious underlying psychological problems, with large amounts of recreational drugs, alcohol, adulation and acting out. And if you keep paying attention after all the good bits, you'll see that X event delayed production by Y time, or directors, or the cast had to be replaced and scenes reshot. If you're going to fuck off into the middle of Africa for six months to shoot effectively a two character movie, you're going to want to bring Humphrey Bogart and Katherine Hepburn, who had a reputation for exceptional professionalism, even temper and just general politeness. There's a reason that tom hanks gets to be in so many movies. There are actors and actress who have long steady careers as supporting cast members simply because they help create a good atmosphere on set. Imagine how awkward it would be to throw a temper tantrum in front of Maggie Smith?

        I can't imagine that peter jackson would have thought twice about it. i'm not sure that any of us would under the circumstances. And even if you were only as wary of weinstein as you should be of any hollywood producer, you're going to just think These actresses are on my producer's enemies list for some reason. This is ultimately his movie, I can hire literally anyone else for this role, so the path of least resistance is just pick someone else. isn't giving psychopaths untrammeled power over vulnerable people just the best!

        Comment


          There's an upcoming movie called "Downsizing".

          It has Christoph Waltz. And Matt Damon.

          Am I allowed to enjoy it?

          Comment


            Fucking hell. I thought Brad Pitt was going to be the twat.

            Comment


              https://mobile.twitter.com/hels/stat...03193992687616

              Not the biggest shock in the world that the “edgy” post post ironic bastards at Vice turn out to be non ironically rapey racist shitheels.

              Comment


                Yeah, that was almost as surprising as discovering that the people Miss America objectify and sexualise women.

                I mean, whodathunk, eh?

                Comment


                  Nobody needs this bad Neighbour:

                  https://www.theguardian.com/stage/20...viour-on-stage

                  Comment


                    Harrowing but important piece of journalism from NPR on the abuse faced by those with intellectual disabilities https://www.npr.org/2018/01/08/57022..._medium=social
                    Last edited by ad hoc; 08-01-2018, 14:35.

                    Comment


                      Liam Neeson has a brainfart:

                      https://www.theguardian.com/film/201...e-a-witch-hunt

                      Comment


                        Well, yeah, Liam Neeson. There will be false allegations, and there will be disproportionate reactions to what some people would call minor incidents. There will be occasions when innocuous behaviour will be described as inappropriate or worse. But in the scheme of the mountain of shit accumulated by patriarchal exploitation of women, sexual and otherwise, a man invoking the language of witchhunts is at best unhelpful and, more accurately, contributing to the problem. As for Catherine Deneuve, she's a woman and I don't presume to dictate to women how to feel about these things. But Neeson should think things over a bit.

                        Comment


                          I find myself in a slight dilemma and I am throwing it out here to try and get some outside opinions. The world I work in is very female dominated (in terms of numbers) but fairly male dominated in terms of "celebrity" such as it is. In recent years a number of initiatives have started to try and redress the " famous plenary speaker is a man" situation somewhat, and happily things are changing.

                          In the last few weeks a new push has started, founded on the MeToo movement but specific to our little professional (and not so professional) world. So far so good. I strongly suspect that there is a lot of stuff that goes down (many of us teach adults, and that teacher student power dynamic is ripe for abuse it seems). However, the focus seems to have come to rest at the conference circuit and what goes on there. Now I am pretty familiar with this circuit as I tend to go to a fair number of ELT conferences in different parts of the world and I imagine (and in some cases I know) that a fair amount of "away from home" type activity goes on at these things, but until this all started up recently I had - perhaps naively - assumed that the worst that happened was adultery.

                          Obviously if there is sexual abuse and sexual harassment happening it needs to be addressed and needs to be stopped. I hope that goes without saying. However, it has become clear that in the last week or so the focus has fixed on one particular individual. He hasn't been named, but I think we all know who it is. Here, though is where my dilemma starts. I know this guy. We're not exactly friends but we see each other from time to time and get on pretty well. He is "famous" as much as anyone is famous in ELT, and is often the main invited guest speaker at conferences. His name sells conferences. He's divorced, and must be in his early 60s. And most times I see him in the conference bar late in the evening he tends to be deep in heavy-eye-contact conversation with a woman significantly younger than him. Without actual evidence but with a fair degree of certainty, I and pretty much everyone else assumes he ends up sleeping with a lot of these women.

                          Now, nobody has ever suggested that these trysts are anything other than consensual. I am as certain as it is possible to be that they are. He's a nice bloke, he's sensitive and a good listener, and I don;t doubt for a moment that this is all entirely mutual. He doesn't wield any power - he is freelance like I am, and cannot either offer work to anyone, nor can he deny work to anyone. What he has is celebrity, and aside from his personality, that's all.

                          But this new MeToo style movement has become - it seems to me- fixated on him, and it feels, honestly, like a bit of a witch hunt. I've spent the past couple of days reading definitions and trying to find out whether what he does fits into any definitions of sexual abuse (because previously I hadn't considered it so, but I at least want to educate myself). Reading the wikipedia page on sexual harassment, I can sort of find a way to make his behaviour fit the definition (not in a legal sense, but in a general sense). But the terms being bandied about are (to me) stronger than sexual harassment - there is talk of a "serial sexual abuser" and a "sexual predator".

                          I presume some of the women who sleep with him end up regretting that, and I presume some don't. Obviously I have no idea. But I'm struggling to find it in me to support the waves of (to me) overly strong condemnation. But at the same time, I want to support the movement and the drive to expose any forms of sexual harassment that exist. It feels like something that can and should be brought out into the open and addressed at a deep level. I know the person who has launched this pretty well and I know her intentions are very good. (And I have tried to talk with her about these concerns above, but I won't see her in person until April - and I feel I really need to sit down and have this conversation face to face with her, but fear that April may be too late). In short, I can't help feeling slightly uncomfortable with the way that this campaign is going, but I am also conscious of the fact that it is not me that is the target and not me who is being harassed (or indeed has any experience of sexual harassment)

                          Any advice? From any of you, but I'd particularly like to hear from the few women we have on the board.

                          Comment


                            I sympathise with this dilemma. Otherwise, can't offer anything other than the observation that the fact that this man 'doesn't wield any power ..... and cannot either offer work to anyone, nor can he deny work to anyone' may not be remotely relevant to the question of whether or not he is guilty of sexual harassment or worse.

                            Comment


                              On the face of it, it doesn't seem like there's anything truly 'untoward' happening. He's simply a charming older man who talks the knickers off of younger women. Whatever you think of that, if he doesn't wield any power - real or imagined - then women (of course) need to be assumed to have agency to make their own decisions.

                              Comment


                                I can offer no advice on this but it does appear to be drifting to the dirty old man side which makes me wonder if there's not something in it. I'm sure he has power, even if it is perceived rather than real.

                                When I first worked in Turkey there were lots of rumours flying around about the directors of studies at three of the branches of the language school I worked at, all were single foreign men in their late 50s. There were also rumours about the owner and his right hand man, again single men.

                                I thought at the time it was malicious gossip or just gossip but many years later one of them was convicted in the UK of child abuse. He had been working in Cairo for the BC and was apparently removed from the country to avoid a scandal after similar rumours appeared.

                                I'm not saying that your man has done anything wrong but there have been a number of high profile cases of ELT teachers who've been convicted of child abuse and have used their position to do so. Often, but not always, using their job as cover to move abroad and teach where child rights are not as strong and where a white western man is able to get away with this kind of abuse due to his position of power.

                                Comment


                                  Back when I has skin in the TEFL game, sleeping with students seemed fairly widespread (these were adult learners). Only went there once, got a horrorshow 7 year relationship for my troubles. Serving me right.

                                  Teachers definitely have a weird power over their students, in terms of young teacher and TEFL “face” liaisons, there still seems some assymetry of power. Enough that it would be sensible for a man of a certain age to keep his dick in his pants.
                                  Last edited by Lang Spoon; 24-01-2018, 21:59. Reason: Has/had is a deliberate mistake, honest.

                                  Comment


                                    Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
                                    Back when I has skin in the TEFL game, sleeping with students seemed fairly widespread (these were adult learners). Only went there once, got a horrorshow 7 year relationship for my troubles. Serving me right.

                                    Teachers definitely have a weird power over their students, in terms of young teacher and TEFL “face” liaisons, there still seems some assymetry of power. Enough that it would be sensible for a man of a certain age to keep his dick in his pants.
                                    This is pretty much my experience too. There's a massive power imbalance exploited by teachers, much of it unconsciously.

                                    Comment


                                      I concur. In many ways I'm glad I came to teaching relatively late in life when I had the maturity to deal with said power imbalance.

                                      Comment


                                        The teacher-student intimate relationship is now fairly widely treated as unacceptable, UCU has policy against and most colleges and unis in UK would have ‘to be avoided’ policies and discipline anyone not declaring such a relationship.
                                        Ad hoc’s case is not that tho, unless we ascribe a power imbalance to ‘being a well known speaker’ (maybe we could).
                                        Ms Felicity used to be a money advice worker and the tales of off-duty flings at their conferences etc were near legendary. So it’s not exactly uncommon ‘awayday’ behaviour, with drink taken and the nostalgia disco fired up.

                                        Comment


                                          Originally posted by Antepli Ejderha View Post
                                          I can offer no advice on this but it does appear to be drifting to the dirty old man side which makes me wonder if there's not something in it. I'm sure he has power, even if it is perceived rather than real.
                                          I'm not a great fan of the "dirty old man" trope, with its image of lecherous men in trenchcoats salivating at young women at bars and on beaches. Why should people of legal age not have inter-generational sex? Isnkt it ageist to attach a stigma to that?

                                          I also can't see how "perceived" power is a factor, unless he pretends to have the power to exercise authority or influence in exchange for sex. If he is attractive to others because he is quite well-known in his field, or handsome, or eloquent, or charming, he is not really abusing power.

                                          The case ad hoc describes seems to be one where there are elements of bandwagon-hopping and outrage machine involved, and perhaps a bit of over-scrupulousness. Maybe also a bit of old-fashioned jealousy at a guy who has a sex life some might envy?

                                          Unless somebody comes forward and explains how the man somehow deprived women of their agency, the case may have the feel of a witchhhunt, or more likely of crying wolf. There's a danger that the unfounded claims of abuse will undermine allegations of genuine cases of abuse, giving rise to a relativism which will serve the abusers.

                                          At the same time, if some men are going to be collateral damage in the struggle to root out sexist abuses and bring down patriarchy, then that must be so.

                                          Comment


                                            Thanks all
                                            Originally posted by jameswba View Post
                                            I sympathise with this dilemma. Otherwise, can't offer anything other than the observation that the fact that this man 'doesn't wield any power ..... and cannot either offer work to anyone, nor can he deny work to anyone' may not be remotely relevant to the question of whether or not he is guilty of sexual harassment or worse.
                                            As my research and looking into this subject in depth as a result of this has shown me. Power does not have to be a factor (though it often is)

                                            Originally posted by Antepli Ejderha View Post
                                            I'm not saying that your man has done anything wrong but there have been a number of high profile cases of ELT teachers who've been convicted of child abuse and have used their position to do so. Often, but not always, using their job as cover to move abroad and teach where child rights are not as strong and where a white western man is able to get away with this kind of abuse due to his position of power.
                                            Want to make it clear that there is no suggestion of anything f that nature at all here. Absolutely not. This is about consenting adults.

                                            Originally posted by Antepli Ejderha View Post
                                            This is pretty much my experience too. There's a massive power imbalance exploited by teachers, much of it unconsciously.
                                            Yes, I think this is very true. And younger teachers in my experience are quite susceptible to using this - very often unconsciously as you say

                                            Originally posted by Felicity, I guess so View Post
                                            The teacher-student intimate relationship is now fairly widely treated as unacceptable, UCU has policy against and most colleges and unis in UK would have ‘to be avoided’ policies and discipline anyone not declaring such a relationship.
                                            Ad hoc’s case is not that tho, unless we ascribe a power imbalance to ‘being a well known speaker’ (maybe we could).
                                            Yes, to the first Every university or institution of HE that I've been involved with in any way has had policies - in some cases going as far as to outright forbid such relationships. I remember once being asked why, and someone in the same conversation made it very clear (with great strength of argument) that whether or not it is two adults, the power dynamic of the teacher student/professor student relationship is such that it needs to be avoided - and if that means making it policy then so be it.

                                            And yes, I am beginning to think that his status is a factor - it doesn't confer any direct power but for many of the women involved his celebrity is I am sure a factor. The women in question tend to be youngish, non-native speakers who may be attending their first conference, and I am quite sure his fame and status is a big factor. He doesn't end up with women who know him (and his reputation)

                                            Originally posted by G-Man View Post
                                            The case ad hoc describes seems to be one where there are elements of bandwagon-hopping and outrage machine involved, and perhaps a bit of over-scrupulousness. Maybe also a bit of old-fashioned jealousy at a guy who has a sex life some might envy?
                                            I'm very reluctant to go down that road. His principal accusers at this time are women, not jealous men. I think there are problems with the focus being on this because I think there are worse problems in ELT than this bloke's philandering, but if this is the starting point that actually gets some of the bigger problems out then I guess, as you say later, it might have served a purpose.

                                            Unless somebody comes forward and explains how the man somehow deprived women of their agency, the case may have the feel of a witchhhunt, or more likely of crying wolf. There's a danger that the unfounded claims of abuse will undermine allegations of genuine cases of abuse, giving rise to a relativism which will serve the abusers.
                                            Yes the relativisim is what wories me a bit. Yesterday, after I wrote this, he was called in a facebook post (or referred to anyway, no names have yet been used) as the "Harvey Weinstein of ELT", which really sickened me a bit. Weinsten coerced and forced women to have sex with him. This bloke leverages his celebrity (possibly) to pursue consensual sex.

                                            Comment


                                              Anyway, yesterday I did write a long email to the woman who has started this, outlining my slight disquiet, and concerns that this is going down the wrong path. She sort of allayed those fears slightly, though not entirely. She's made a website for people to submit stories of any sort of sexual abuse or bullying (of any sort), and I think she;s getting overwhelmed a bit sifting through some terrible stories and removing any possible identifiers from them for publication (and she is getting a lot about this bloke it seems). But the stories being posted are mostly about other incidents & other people. Including one absolutely appalling and shocking one from Brazil that I had to read 3 times to get my head around

                                              Comment


                                                The women in question tend to be youngish, non-native speakers
                                                This is no surprise at all and after I'd posted I was sure this would come up.

                                                Comment


                                                  Originally posted by ad hoc View Post
                                                  Anyway, yesterday I did write a long email to the woman who has started this, outlining my slight disquiet, and concerns that this is going down the wrong path. She sort of allayed those fears slightly, though not entirely. She's made a website for people to submit stories of any sort of sexual abuse or bullying (of any sort), and I think she;s getting overwhelmed a bit sifting through some terrible stories and removing any possible identifiers from them for publication (and she is getting a lot about this bloke it seems). But the stories being posted are mostly about other incidents & other people. Including one absolutely appalling and shocking one from Brazil that I had to read 3 times to get my head around
                                                  Even if he's done nothing wrong but perhaps slightly unethical then the other stories getting heard might now turn this into a positive if it helps others and prevents other vulnerable people being exploited.

                                                  Comment


                                                    Originally posted by G-Man View Post
                                                    I'm not a great fan of the "dirty old man" trope, with its image of lecherous men in trenchcoats salivating at young women at bars and on beaches. Why should people of legal age not have inter-generational sex? Isnkt it ageist to attach a stigma to that?
                                                    Relationships where one partner is much younger than the other (especially if under 25 or so) tend to have an inherent power imbalance due to the different levels of maturity and experience, and more often than not the relative social status of the two partners. They're not automatically icky or anything, but consistently seeking out easily impressed partners much younger than oneself doesn't suggest a particularly healthy outlook.

                                                    From ad hoc's description it doesn't sound like this man is doing anything abusive and the Weinstein comparisons seem completely out of line; all the same, if it was my workplace I would be steering well clear of someone like that, because he sounds like a bit of a dick who uses his status to get women into bed, and I wouldn't expect him to treat women as equals in a professional context either even if unconsciously.
                                                    Last edited by Fussbudget; 25-01-2018, 20:41.

                                                    Comment

                                                    Working...
                                                    X