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An Idiot Asks: Baseball Edition

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    #76
    Fascinating - so this is totally rare. It's like the weird ways of getting dismissed in cricket (Obstructing the Field, Hit the Ball Ttwice).

    I was fascinated by the catcher's interference the other day, too. I'm amazed it's as rare as it appears to be, given how close the catcher's glove seems to get to the batter.

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      #77
      Yes, I actually meant to draw the cricket comparison.

      And yes, the penalty for not getting out of the way is for the pitch to be called a ball (or strike, at least theoretically).

      I don't know if there has been a formal change in guidance, but my sense is that Catcher's Interference is being called more often that it used to be. When I was growing up, it often wasn't called if the touch wasn't seen as having actually interfered with the swing.

      Then again, batters' swings have gotten longer and catchers have moved marginally closer to batters over the same period of time.

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        #78
        Is it the kind of thing you can try and draw as a batter? If you've got a great pitcher up against you that you feel unlikely to hit, do you lengthen and loosen your backswing in the hope of tapping the catcher's glove?

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          #79
          I've never heard of anyone trying to do that.

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            #80
            Here's one: given that the American and National Leagues have slightly different sets of rules (that stuff about the designated hitter that was mentioned upthread), what happens regarding this during the World Series? AL rules when the AL team is at home and NL rules when the NL team is at home?

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              #81
              Yep. For the Dodgers, Corey Seager is coming off of a back injury, and they won't know how he will fare with hitting and fielding in Game 1 tonight, at home. When they go to Houston, they'll have the option of using him as a designated hitter because he is one of the best hitters that they have. And it's always fun seeing AL pitchers going up to bat. You have NL some pitchers like Kershaw, and especially Madison Bumgarner, who are no slouches when it comes to batting and you have to take somewhat seriously when they go up to hit.

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                #82
                Like golf swings, top level baseball swings are very delicate bits of bio-mechanics.

                Even if a catcher presented a decent opportunity for an induced interference call (which is rare in itself), extraordinarily few batters would take the chance of screwing up their swing mechanics.

                The exception is someone like Jacoby Ellsbury, who has drawn the call a record 30 times in an 11 year career (most recently in the fifth game of the ALDS against Cleveland).

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                  #83
                  Is there any thinking that Ellsbury does it deliberately?

                  On the AL pitchers - are there a bunch who think they can bat like gods and are pissed that they're excluded, the way that some bowlers clearly think they shouldn't be batting at 10 in a cricket line up? Or are they absolutely rabbit-in-the-headlights Devon Malcolm types?

                  Oh - and another Idiot Asks question. Do NL teams play AL teams during the regular season, or is only in the World Series? And if so, is it the same principle of using the home team's rules?

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                    #84
                    There is some inter-league play in the regular season, but it's pretty limited in extent. And yep, my gaff, my rules.

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                      #85
                      Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                      Like golf swings, top level baseball swings are very delicate bits of bio-mechanics.

                      Even if a catcher presented a decent opportunity for an induced interference call (which is rare in itself), extraordinarily few batters would take the chance of screwing up their swing mechanics.
                      The commentators talk about players shortening their swings when facing certain pitches (from my understanding ones with a particularly rapid fastball). That suggest that the swings are adaptable to some extent. But then so are golf swings, in pre-planned manners. I guess it would be similar.

                      As an aside, if a cricket wicketkeeper collects the ball in front of the bowling crease, that should be called a no-ball. Apparently. It happened to our work 'keeper in an inter-company friendly, which felt somewhat similar to being foot-faulted on club night at the local Tennis Club. 'Oh, so that is how you want to play it today?!? Right...'

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                        #86
                        Shortening is much easier than lengthening, as the most basic way of doing it is to move one's hands up on the bat.

                        And yes, most commentators think that Ellsbury's record is not a matter of chance (though we are still talking about fewer than 3 calls in a season where he will come to the plate over 500 times)

                        Prior to 1997, the only "interleague play" was at the World Series. Old curmudgeons like me would still prefer that was the case, but that horse left the barn almost immediately, and the current schedule has each team playing 20 of their 162 regular season games against clubs from the other league.

                        In the early years of interleague play, the difference in batting proficiency between National League pitchers and their American League counterparts was more pronounced, but that gap has been reduced as NL pitchers have gotten worse, largely because most amateur and minor leagues now use the Designated Hitter (first introduced in the AL in 1973).

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                          #87
                          Right - back to the question about the size of the bullpen. After last night's game, the Dodgers got through 9 pitchers and were said to have emptied it.

                          Why wouldn't you pad the bullpen out more, particularly if you know you're going to start pulling pitchers early?

                          Also, if you do run out of pitchers in the 11th inning and the game stretches to 16 innings, does your final pitcher just have to keep going and going?

                          Finally, again, why weren't some Dodgers starters sitting in the bullpen able to come in after inning 11? Surely it's better to sacrifice them now, and win a game than to keep them fresh for a game 5 that might never happen?

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                            #88
                            I can take the last one. Game 5 starter (which will happen, they were 1 up in a best of 7) is Kershaw. He is on a rest day and they would never pitch him in any capacity that quickly.

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                              #89
                              As I think we mentioned earlier, the 25 man roster for each club must be set before each "postseason" series, and is not subject to alteration once it is officially announced a day or two before the series starts. Clubs can, however, change their rosters between series, and while the Astros kept their ALCS roster intact for the World Series, the Dodgers reacted to Corey Seager's recovery from injury by replacing Curtis Granderson with Seager. They also replaced utility player Kyle Farmer with Brandon McCarthy, giving them another pitcher (though one who hadn't pitched since 1 October and has very limited experience in relief).

                              As a result, the Dodgers have twelve pitchers available (one more than they did in the NLCS)

                              Left Handers

                              Tony Cingrani
                              Rich Hill
                              Clayton Kershaw
                              Tony Watson
                              Alex Wood

                              Right Handers
                              Yu Darvish
                              Josh Fields
                              Kenley Jansen
                              Kenta Maeda
                              Brandon McCarthy
                              Brandon Morrow
                              Ross Stripling
                              After pulling starter Rich Hill after four innings last night, Roberts burned through eight more pitchers before the end of the game (three of whom pitched less than one inning, and only one of whom (Jansen) got more than four outs. The only three pitchers he didn't use were Kershaw (who pitched Game One), Darvish (who is starting Game Three tomorrow) and Alex Wood (who is starting Game Four on Saturday).

                              No manager would use a starter who had thrown 83 pitches the night before in relief (especially not the best pitcher in the game). Nor would he use the next day's starter (even given the off day). There was more of a possibility that he could have used Wood, but doing as his absolute last pitcher could have thrown off his rotation for the rest of the series, potentially requiring Kershaw to start Game Four on short rest. The decision that Roberts made in going for McCarthy instead of Wood was essentially to potentially compromise his chances of winning Game Two in order to preserve the rotation strategy he developed for having the best chance to win Games Four through Seven. Note also that the handedness of the batters the Dodgers would face in the tenth made a righty (like McCarthy) more attractive than a lighty (like Wood) and that Wood has only appeared a handful of times in relief since joining the Dodgers three seasons ago.

                              The situation would have been different if LA was facing elimination, in which case it would have been more likely (though my no means certain) that Roberts would have gone to Wood or even Darvish to keep the chance of winning the series alive.
                              Last edited by ursus arctos; 26-10-2017, 16:07.

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                                #90
                                Ah! I must have missed the part where you mentioned the 25-player roster for the series. Is that true for all series, or does it only apply in post-season?

                                I am actually relieved to discover that there's a de facto limit to the bullpen.

                                Comment


                                  #91
                                  Teams have a 25 man roster for the regular season up until September 1, when it increases to 40 because minor league seasons have effectively ended.

                                  The rules for moving players on and off of the roster during the regular season are complex, but it can be done.

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                                    #92
                                    It's partly why I was dreading the Dodgers tying it again in the 11th and either not winning or not losing. Going on to the 12th inning would have meant either McCarthy going out again, which would have been pretty bad, or throwing Wood in there, which could have been even worse down the road.

                                    Fangraphs makes the case that Roberts made the right decision in taking Hill out when he did, and basically, the game turns out very differently if Jansen doesn't give that fat pitch to Gonzalez.

                                    Comment


                                      #93
                                      As the new season's under way, let's bring this thread back for those of us who didn't grow up with the game...

                                      First up this year. I'm watching the Padres up against the Brewers, and the commentators are referring to "The young catcher, Austin Hedges". Hedges is 25. Yesterday, the Padres were a little excited about Joey Lucchesi's pitching debut. Lucchesi is 24.

                                      In almost no other sport would a 25 year old be described as young. You'd not be talking about "the young left-back" if they're 25. And nobody makes a debut at 24. Maybe someone will make a Test Cricket debut at that age, but you'll already played a bunch of first class cricket.

                                      So, is baseball an old man's game - do the players all play until they're 40 or 45? Or are their careers generally shorter than in other sports because they lose the 6 years between 18-24?

                                      Comment


                                        #94
                                        Most have to play their way through at least two levels of minor league ball after they leave college or school. It's not so different from hockey, for example, where a player is drafted at eighteen. You don't expect most of them to show up full-time in the NHL until they're 22 or 23. Baseball has a deeper minor league system, and arguably there's more to learn than in hockey, especially if you're a pitcher or catcher.

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                                          #95
                                          There are very very few 18-21 year olds on MLB rosters. Most all have to go through either a few years in the minors or play college ball. So I can see where a 24 or 25 year old is considered young.

                                          If you check out the ages on the current Padres team you will see that the youngest pitcher to play so far is 25 and youngest position player is 23. On the 40-man roster, the youngest are four 22 year olds.

                                          You'll get some players in their 40s and history has shown some players are insanely durable. Nolan Ryan, being freakishly good and throwing serious heat even in his 40s.

                                          Comment


                                            #96
                                            I look at that list, and the age range is pretty narrow - mostly 25-34. So, although some players have longevity, it doesn't look like it's that common. It's looks like most players top-flight career will probably be under a decade. Is that right, or are the Padres anomalous?

                                            Comment


                                              #97
                                              They aren't anomalous. A ten year major league career is quite impressive, a fifteen year career very notable, a twenty year career increasingly unheard of.

                                              The role of university/college sports in the US is important here. Although baseball can and does draft high school seniors, college experience is valued, which means that you are looking at 22-23 year olds as first time professionals.

                                              Latino players will tend to reach the majors at a younger age, though that gets very complicated in the case of Cubans and other Latinos who don’t become part of the MLB academy system as teenagers.

                                              Another important factor here for both pitchers and hitters is the ability to throw or hit breaking balls and off speed pitches. One can be very successful, and even dominant, as a high school player if one can either throw extremely hard or hit fastballs extremely well. Given that it is increasingly the case that youth leagues don't allow players under 13 to throw breaking balls at all (because of the strain they put on young arms), high school pitchers rarely a truly effective second pitch. What happens in university and/or the lower minors is that talented pitchers develop secondary pitchers and talented hitters learn how to make contact with those deliveries. This process can happen a bit faster in some place like the Dominican, because the most talented players in the country are concentrated in academies from their mid-teens, but in the US, they are playing most of their games in tens of thousands of high schools scattered across the country.
                                              Last edited by ursus arctos; 01-04-2018, 02:04.

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                                                #98
                                                Coming back to this, I have a couple more questions, triggered by what the Padres are doing.

                                                I think of players as being defined by their fielding positions, as "second basemen" or whatever. Yet when someone comes back from the DL, or even when the Padres mess around with their line-up because they still don't know what their best team is, players keep getting moved around in the field. Is this normal? I had assumed (and I thought we'd covered it before), that players getting very used to the throw to first from wherever they are in the field, and messing this up would screw with their rhythms.

                                                Secondly, there was a situation the other day where there was a runner on third, and only one out. The Padre batting popped a ball up which would have fallen foul, yet the oppo fielder sprinted in and took a diving catch. The diving catch meant that he was unable to throw to get the runner out and the Padres scored. Is it normal to sacrifice a run for an out? Or - as I suspect - was this actually a cock-up by the fielder that's not called as an error because he made the catch?

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                                                  #99
                                                  #2. You're right. He should have let it go foul, but a fielder's instinct is always go for the out. It also depends a bit on where the out was made. If it was down the first base line the catcher would have had little chance to tag the runner, so the fielder should have known better. Down the third base line, it's a bit more iffy. A clean catch and a good throw might have got the runner hung up.

                                                  The other issue is the stage in the game. If the Padres were winning comfortably in the late innings then giving up a run to make an out is not a bad call.

                                                  #1 Fairly normal. First and third bases might switch about, as might SS and second. The out-fielders might too. But beyond that it's more unusual.
                                                  Last edited by Amor de Cosmos; 23-05-2018, 01:06.

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                                                    On 1, most "bench players" who aren't pitchers or catchers are able to play multiple positions. "Utility infielders" can generally play competently at 2d, 3d and short, while "backup outfielders" can play at least left and right, and often center. These players will have a single position at which they are most comfortable, but their competence at multiple spots is what accounts for their spots on a major league roster.

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