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    #51
    Closers themselves will say just that, at least in part because they are much better compensated than other relief pitchers.
    I suspect this is why they say that.

    Comment


      #52
      On using starting pitchers in relief in a wild card game, the whole set-up of that match is actually quite cute in giving an edge to the Divisional champions who the wild card game winners will go on to meet.
      Presumably in a one-off game both teams will go for their ace, or as near as dammit. However the gap between the wild card game and the divisional series is pretty short, I believe. So that likely pushes the ace into probably not starting in the DS until game 3, which in turn gives him too short a turn around to feature in any potential games 4 or 5. Therefore it hands the rested team a minor, but possibly crucial advantage. That makes the recent increase (3 or 4 seasons ago only?) from one to two wild card teams a rare event in modern sport - an expansion of the number of qualifying teams that might actually help those who have earned the traditional slots over the backdoor entrants.
      Last edited by Janik; 04-10-2017, 21:32.

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        #53
        Reed, that is certainly the advice that they get from their agents
        Last edited by ursus arctos; 04-10-2017, 21:34.

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          #54
          Janik, providing the division winners with some kind of advantage was one of the conditions that the better clubs put forward in the context of the introduction of the second wild card.

          The bigger issue with regard to what we call "pitching rotations" in the post-season is that (as a general rule), division winners will have time between the date they clinch their division and the start of the division series to set their rotation in what they consider to be the absolute optimal manner (including having guys pitch at home or away, should they be seen to be more effective in one setting). Wild card teams, on the other hand, often have to fight through the last day of the season in order to qualify (or even play a playoff game to get into the Wild Card Game), which causes them to "burn" their ace(s) before the post-season has even begun.

          Giving the importance of pitching to the sport and the general quality drop off between a team's ace and its fourth starter, it is notable that six Wild Card teams (including three in a row between 2002-04) have won the World Series, though this particular disadvantage generally dissipates quickly once the Division Series reaches its midpoint.
          Last edited by ursus arctos; 04-10-2017, 21:38.

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            #55
            The Little League World Series designates rest (from pitching) for players based on number of pitches thrown, doesn't it? Something like 60+ and that kid can't pitch again for x many days, 50-60 one day fewer, etc.
            OK, I get protecting kids from injury, but that kind of rigidity on the issue does suggest the idea that rest periods are not individual to each player is very ingrained.

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              #56
              That rule is Little League-wide and designed to protect literally millions of kids under the age of 13. It also post-dates the introduction of "pitch counts" for professionals rather than the other way around.

              MLB teams have staffs of dozens who can spend the time needed to come up with more individual limits.

              That said, it is definitely true that strict “rules” (formal or informal) are more prevalent the lower one goes down the ladder.
              Last edited by ursus arctos; 04-10-2017, 21:53.

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                #57
                Thank you again all. Continuing to be incredibly helpful.

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                  #58
                  So, a sillier question:

                  How big are those pockets that umpires have that seem to be full of balls? Every now and again, you see them getting refilled. But it doesn't appear to be nearly frequently enough given that one at-bat can get through ten balls or more.

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                    #59
                    My guess is that they hold 6-10. The O's ballboy seems to bring them out 4 at a time or so.

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                      #60
                      Charlie Finley had an idea about that as well

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                        #61
                        So, a fuck up by the Indians just now reminds me to ask:

                        Is there a good reason that fielders always throw to First Base to get outs, even if those fielders are closer to second or third and would get the out just as easily with a shorter throw which is less likely to go wrong?

                        On a related note - is there a reason they often wait a while before making that throw to First? Is it to try and get the runner to run the full distance and tire himself out? Is it just to set themselves to make the throw more likely to be good?

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                          #62
                          It's largely the result of having made tens/hundreds of thousands of throws to first and many, many fewer to other bases. There's also the fact the first baseman is much more adept at corralling errant throws than his counterparts.

                          The delay is a setting mechanism. One is often a bit unbalanced after fielding the ball, and with a major league arm, there is always time to steady oneself.

                          Fielding in baseball is different from cricket in many ways, but the way the ball is generally fielded and thrown is one of the most obvious. Cricket fielding and throws tend most to resemble throws from the outfield to second base on singles, which are a small percentage of baseball fielding plays. And that's before one gets to the essential nature of the "cut-off man" in most meaningful throws from the outfield.

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                            #63
                            That's a much better reason for throwing to first than any I was guessing.

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                              #64
                              Originally posted by San Bernardhinault View Post
                              So, a fuck up by the Indians just now reminds me to ask:

                              Is there a good reason that fielders always throw to First Base to get outs, even if those fielders are closer to second or third and would get the out just as easily with a shorter throw which is less likely to go wrong?

                              On a related note - is there a reason they often wait a while before making that throw to First? Is it to try and get the runner to run the full distance and tire himself out? Is it just to set themselves to make the throw more likely to be good?
                              They don’t always do that, but if there’s a runner going from first to second, or from second to third, he may have started running when the pitcher started winding up - steal/hit-and-run - whereas the batter running to first will be easier to get out because he didn’t start until he hit the ball.

                              Comment


                                #65
                                What the history/justification for a foul not counting as a strike when the count is full?

                                I think this quirk first really registered with me when watching Ichiro seemingly deliberately fouling a large number of pitches in a row on a full count, until he got a pitch he was able to hit for a single. Which leads me not to a rule question, but one related to styles and abilities: is Ichiro the best cricketer-like player ever in the Major Leagues? Who now or in the history of the sport is similar in their style of play? I've always thought that if Ichiro had played cricket he'd have been better than Tendulkar, maybe even at Bradman levels.

                                Comment


                                  #66
                                  Originally posted by San Bernardhinault View Post
                                  On a related note - is there a reason they often wait a while before making that throw to First? Is it to try and get the runner to run the full distance and tire himself out? Is it just to set themselves to make the throw more likely to be good?
                                  What UA and HP said, plus this: If there are runners on base who are not forced to run by having someone on base behind them, the receiving fielder will often delay his throw to see if the runner(s) are trying to advance and if so attempt to throw them out, or to hold the runner(s) where they are and prevent them from advancing before throwing to first to get the batter.

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                                    #67
                                    I don’t know when that rule was installed, but it gives the batter a better chance to find pitch he can hit *if* he is skilled and disciplined enough to foul off pitches that are near or in the strike zone but not quite hittable. Every batter has different strengths and weaknesses.

                                    It just makes it more interesting and offers more opportunities to the offense.

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                                      #68
                                      So, it looks as if when a pitch hits a batsman, the batsman gets a free walk. So why do batsmen still try and weave out of the way? Isn't it better to get tapped on the shoulder/arm? Indeed, wouldn't you deliberately try and inch your way into the path of the ball to try and increase the odds?

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                                        #69
                                        Some do. Though at some point you run the risk of getting injured, either accidentally, or because a pitcher wants to teach you a lesson. I'd guess your manager might have a word too. The club has a fair amount of money riding on you staying healthy as long as possible. I also suspect — and others may correct me — that if you clearly leaned into the path of the ball the umpire could call you out.

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                                          #70
                                          The foul strike rule wasn’t adopted until the first years of the 20th century, some 25 years after the game became professional. Prior to that, fouls weren’t counted as balls or strikes, and a few Ichiro-like batters became so adept at fouling pitches off that it was felt that something had to be done in order to limit the use of that tactic. The fact that most games were played with only one or two balls (with fouls being retrieved from the stands, as in cricket) meant that there was also a “pace of play” inspiration for the change. The different rule on the third strike was seen as giving the batters a break in the context of a very pitcher-friendly rule.

                                          The main reason batters try to avoid pitches is that getting hit hurts, and can result in real injuries (especially of the hands). While many batters now wear body armour that reduces the impact, they won’t have had that protection as kids, which are when many such automatisms are developed.

                                          As Amor notes, one can also be called out for failing to attempt to avoid a pitched ball. This is particularly the case if the batter in question has developed a reputation for “hanging” his leading arm into or over the strike zone or for drawing Hit by Pitches as a strategy in the style of Ron Hunt or Don Baylor. The advent of body armour has made umpires a bit more likely to make that particular call, though it is still reasonably rare, and will almost always provoke an argument.

                                          The most damous example of such a call was the 1968 incident that invalidated a HBP that would have ended Don Drysdale’s record streak of consecutive scoreless innings prematurely.

                                          It so happens that the son of the umpire who made that call is officiating in this year’s post-season.
                                          Last edited by ursus arctos; 19-10-2017, 11:35.

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                                            #71
                                            So you can't use it as a realistic tactic because you might get called out, and a 100mph ball hurts so much that it's not worth getting a walk to base instead of getting out of the way of the damn thing.

                                            I guess that makes sense.

                                            Funny that last night's Cubs game had the very thing I wondered about earlier - with the non-existent thin-edge. Ironically (for a cricket watcher) it's only relevant if the catcher doesn't make the catch.

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                                              #72
                                              Pretty much. Even a 60-70 mph curveball hurts and will give you a welt.

                                              Baylor was incredible at hit by pitches. He never wore a single shread of plastic armor, besides his helmet of course*, and never showed pain when he was hit. Ever. He would simply throw his bat aside and jog to first.

                                              He explained later that being hit hurt, of course, but that he would will himself not to show pain as it would give a psychological advantage to the pitcher.



                                              *and he was macho enough that he probably would have just batted with a cap had the rules not banned that.

                                              Comment


                                                #73
                                                Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                                                It's largely the result of having made tens/hundreds of thousands of throws to first and many, many fewer to other bases. There's also the fact the first baseman is much more adept at corralling errant throws than his counterparts.

                                                The delay is a setting mechanism. One is often a bit unbalanced after fielding the ball, and with a major league arm, there is always time to steady oneself.

                                                Fielding in baseball is different from cricket in many ways, but the way the ball is generally fielded and thrown is one of the most obvious. Cricket fielding and throws tend most to resemble throws from the outfield to second base on singles, which are a small percentage of baseball fielding plays. And that's before one gets to the essential nature of the "cut-off man" in most meaningful throws from the outfield.
                                                I would have thought the third point would be related to time. Base runners get a decent start on their journey, typically 15 feet, so any throw to other bases is more likely to be tight.

                                                That was covered in this incredibly nerdy piece my friend wrote about the Cubs in NLDS game 5.

                                                Comment


                                                  #74
                                                  Speaking of incredibly nerdy, getting hit by a pitch is not "getting a walk to first base".

                                                  It is a completely separate way of reaching first base, of which most people agree there are somewhere between seven and nine (the difference being down to whether or not one includes a base hit, and whether one considers Catcher's Interference to be a different thing than Defensive Interference by a player other than the Catcher.

                                                  People write journal articles on this subject, and it came up in the Cubs/Nationals series because of that crazy half inning in which the Cubs did something that has not happened before in recorded MLB history, reaching base via a hit, walk, Catcher's Interference, hit by pitch, and a dropped third strike.

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                                                    #75
                                                    The first time I saw an umpire say the batter didn’t try hard enough to get out of the way of a pitch was Cubs-Nats in RFK around 2005, I think. But as I recall, it wasn’t an out. Just called a ball. Is that possible? He didn’t lean into it, he just didn’t try at all to prevent it from hitting him in the back. I forget who it was.

                                                    I recall learning that rule in teener league, but had never seen it applied.

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