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    Bleeding ceremonial counties, innit?

    All those Cup Finals played in the "provinces"

    Comment


      "So the only constant is that it's the most famous, glamorous and prestigious competition in European football. And this is proved by its other great constant: Real Madrid.

      Let's look at the rebrand: Real Madrid were the first to retain both the European Champion Clubs' Cup and the UEFA Champions League. They were the first to win BOTH the ECCC and UCL two, three, four, five and six times. They were (along with their opponents, obvs) the first to play teams from their own country in the knock-out rounds of the ECCC and the first to play in a one-country final of either brand and then the first to play in a one-city final. They have won each "brand" more times than any other club won it.

      Then you ignore the rebrand and just look at it all as one big competition: There have only been four hat-tricks scored in the final - three of them were by Real players. Puskas, who got three in the first half as they lost the 1962 final, is also the only man to get four in a final ... the same final in which Di Stefano grabbed a hat-trick, versus Eintracht at Hampden in 1960. Incredible. The only other man to get three in the final is, as per the beautiful pic posted by ursus in the hijacked Holland/Netherlands thread, Pierino Prati for Milan v Ajax in 1969 - but even then that final was in the Bernabeu.

      This is why I was almost as sad as Ronaldo was for himself when he didn't manage a third in Cardiff in June. Everything Real Madrid do in the UCL is an echo of what they did in the ECCC and, for me, unifies the two brands beyond all doubt. I'm painfully aware it's a cartel. But it always was, really. And the fact the UCL is harder to retain than the old ECCC hasn't made anyone bemoan the days Ajax and Bayern were winning it three in a row. In fact, Real winning the first five editions is what sealed the competition's glamour and mystique rather than cheapening it.

      Ronaldo's total of four has at least moved him into third in terms of goals scored in the final, behind Puskas and Di Stefano (joint-first on seven each). Add Cardiff to his opener for Man United in Moscow in 2008 and the late extra time pen for Real in Lisbon in 2014 and he has moved into second behind Di Stefano (five straight from 1956 to 60 inclusive) in terms of scoring finals. Paco Gento and Di Stefano himself slightly ruin the run of "R" Real players to score in more than one final - Ronaldo and Ramos are cool but (Hector) Rial and Raul are downright eye-rhymes for "Real" itself. And there was even more poetry in all four scorers from the 4-1 win over Atletico in the 2014 final converting pens in the shoot-out win over Atletico in 2016, in the San Siro, where Real have never won over 90 minutes.

      Real are just providing grander versions of Dudek mimicking Grobbelaar's shoot-out antics of 21 years earlier to win the same cup for two different generations of the same club, against Italians in all-white who enjoyed a distinct advantage earlier in the evening. Every great competition needs mythos to override the rank commercialism and politics which inevitably underpins them (and, for me, made football so doggedly working class - posh people don't talk about money, they want us to think it's vulgar so we won't bother them about it).

      Even though Real have also won it in all-black and all-violet, I don't think it's any coincidence that Bayern (twice), Aston Villa, Milan (six times), Steaua, Benfica and Marseille have also won the final in all-white (making it, at 22 times, the winningest "colour" combo in the European Cup/Champions League final. The all-red of Liverpool, Forest, Bayern, HSV in 1983 and Ajax in 1973 coming in a distant second on 12). It's saintly, it's pure - the opposite of what Real and UEFA truly are; but it's dazzling, other-worldly and glamorous - all the things Europe's premier club competition should be to the fans."


      I read this post while the Himno del Real Madrid played in my head. Excellent stuff, Alex. We've disappeared down a fantastic rabbit hole since then but may I just ask why on earth did no-one answer Satchmo Distel's simple page 1 query successfully? (My excuse is I've been on holiday). And to save you referring back, no we're not counting Busquets.

      "Father and son winners - Maldini...?"

      Comment


        Anyway, I reckon Dida, with Milan, has faced more penalties than any other keeper in the final .

        I'm including shootout pens here, obviously. But what's not so obvious is, having faced ten penalties across three separate finals (including shootouts v Juve in 2003 and Liverpool in 2005), Dida's only faced one more than Canizares did in the 2001 final alone.

        Comment


          Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
          Bleeding ceremonial counties, innit?

          All those Cup Finals played in the "provinces"
          If they would just play the final in Ashington, Funchal and Campbell Park, Saltcoats we wouldn't have all these uncertainties.

          Comment


            It's Manuel and Manolo Sanchis! (Jeez, it's like you guys want to airbrush them from history!)

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              Originally posted by Jon View Post
              [I] ...why on earth did no-one answer Satchmo Distel's simple page 1 query successfully? (My excuse is I've been on holiday). And to save you referring back, no we're not counting Busquets.

              "Father and son winners - Maldini...?"
              In my case it was, as usual, sheer cowardice, Jon. I did know about Busquets and the Maldinis but could neither think of anyone else nor say with any certainty there wasn't anyone else.

              Okay, Carles Busquets didn't play at Wembley in 92 but it is lovely that his son (who I do not find lovely but would have in my team tomorrow) won it at the same stadium. Even though it had moved slightly in-between times.

              Originally posted by Jon View Post
              It's Manuel and Manolo Sanchis! (Jeez, it's like you guys want to airbrush them from history!)
              Bloody hell! D and indeed OH! Apologies to everyone concerned. Can't even claim it was on the tip of my tongue. Those minutes for junior in Paris in 2000 certainly help them beat the Busquets men in their little paternalistic clasico.

              When I was posting earlier about Gento being the only guy to have won more European Cups than Paolo Maldini, I was forgetting that the famiglia Maldini have beaten Gento by one on number of finals played, and equalled him on finals won. Cesare was in the Milan side which lost to Gento's extra-time goal at the Heysel in 1958 and captained Milan's first ever European Cup-winning side, at lovely old Wembley in 63.

              As some sort of pathetic distraction from my father-son ignorance I did answer one of Satchmo's later posts with a rant on brothers to have featured in the final - often, but not always, on the same night. Again, hardly conclusive ...

              Originally posted by Alex Anderson View Post
              ... Ivano Bonetti player-managed Dundee, with his brother Dario as non-playing assistant - Ivano played the 1992 final for Sampdoria at Wembley, with Dario an unused sub.

              Oh! Yes! Of course! European Cup Final Brothers! Well, De Boer me sideways with an Unused Phil Neville of an Unused Rafael, multiplied by a Kolo then a Yaya! Is there no end to the trivia.

              And after the Grays had played in the final for Leeds, Frank went on to win it with Forest...
              Last edited by Alex Anderson; 18-08-2017, 17:09. Reason: My dad saw Sanchis Snr at Kilmarnock in 65-66. Junior retired just too early for me to catch him with Spain or Real.

              Comment


                Originally posted by Alex Anderson View Post
                If they would just play the final in Ashington, Funchal and Campbell Park, Saltcoats we wouldn't have all these uncertainties.
                Ashington is the only ground I've been to where a horse started wandering up and down the pitch side. I believe this sort of thing is looked down by the UEFA inspectors.

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                  The hypocrisy being those inspectors all have their own ranches, built on the tears of frustration I weep for lack of European Cup trivia ...

                  Comment


                    The Parc des Princes staged the first ever final, in 1956, but was refurbed so extensively in the early 70's it's regarded as a different stadium. So two bearing that name PLUS the Stade de France means Paris is the only city to have staged the final in three different venues.

                    Which country has provided the most venues to have staged the final of the European Cup/UEFA Champions League?

                    Comment


                      The Parc des Princes staged the first ever final, in 1956, but was refurbed so extensively in the early 70's it's regarded as a different stadium.
                      And rightly so





                      I'm contractually obligated to note that the Stade de France is neither in the city of Paris nor the Departement.

                      I will go with Germany (and please don't try the West Germany/DDR thing)

                      Munich, Olympiastadion and Allianz Arena
                      Stuttgart, Neckarstadion
                      Gelsenkirchen, Arena auf Schalke
                      Berlin, Olympiastadion

                      Comment


                        I believe that the Arena auf Schalke is also the only European Cup Final venue that is/was primarily a club ground, but where the resident club has never been the Champion of its current league.

                        Yes, I recognise that that is a highly pedantic and strained "record"

                        It is also the only Final where the many of the press and VIP guests were housed in a different city: Dusseldorf.
                        Last edited by ursus arctos; 19-08-2017, 00:13.

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                          "Those minutes for junior in Paris in 2000 certainly help them beat the Busquets men in their little paternalistic clasico."


                          Yes, but he played a much more significant role in Amsterdam in 1997, lifting the cup as the winning captain.

                          I do feel he doesn't get his dues when it comes to the history books. Case in point; I've just checked the Wikipedia entry on one-club men and I can't see him mentioned, despite him playing some 710 games exclusively for los Blancos.

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                            If I can join in with harking back to the first page of the thread, as far as players/managers go, Cruyff is the only one to achieve the quadruple of winning and losing a final as player and manager. Rijkaard, Guardiola and Zidane can emulate him if they lose a final, although Rijkaard needs a career resurrection. The others (Muñoz, Trappatoni and Ancelotti) were all undefeated as players.
                            I'm struggling to come up with a coach who could emulate Cruyff by winning the trophy, i.e. who has won and lost as a player but has only so far lost as a manager.

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                              Clarence Seedorf - winner with three clubs spread across 13 seasons.

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                                You give with one hand ursus and...

                                I'm never mentioning Paris again. You reassure me Anelka has played the final in his home city, despite being born 17.6 Kilomiles from the centre but now the Stade de France ISN'T in Paris?! D'ye know ... d'ye know what you've turned Paris into, ursus - you've made Paris a Moveable fekin Feast!

                                It's a fair but hard thread you have here. The pictures make it worth it though. Damn - those sure are one gorgeous stadium.

                                Never seen a game in Paris. Stood on the pitch of the Manoir in Colombes, did the tour of the Stade de France and was stood outside a closed down Parc des Princes, it's main gate patrolled by a surly policeman, when a very determined German hopper turned up and talked us all in. Mid-week, mid-morning - empty: It blew my tits off. It felt like that picture of its previous incarnation looks - the romance was material, the atmosphere just undeniable.

                                Perhaps its what we invest in these places imaginatively that demands a payoff. All those years of seeing them on telly, always during heightened occasions, is bound to make us want to feel something - something that maybe isn't there. But, other than Hampden and Ibrox, I've never romanticised any ground more than the Bernabeu and my tour of that particular palace on a Madrid non-match morning was exciting ... but not magical - not like the Parc des Princes. Only the old San Mames has come close to providing that same unspoken power. MUST go back to Le Parc to watch a game. To shut me up about it, if nothing else.

                                But I'll never get to pop my coat over a fence and stretch out on a roomy bench on top of a cycle track - especially a Tour de France track - especially not to watch a dazzling European Cup final between legends never surpassed (and see a goal by the man who would lose in this final but come back to the new Parc des Princes and win his nation's first major trophy, also against Spaniards) - especially not with those buildings popping up, like as if Haussmann had designed Wrigleyville, over those gorgeous stand roofs with their massive fascia boards incorporating the most classically continental of European Cup Romance adverts: In decades to come, please let our grandkids think of idents for Carlsberg, Playstation and Gazprom the way I now see sepia-tinted monochrome shots of huge L'Equipe, Martini and Le Parisien billboards.

                                ...please don't tell me that pic is actually from the Latin Cup final of the year before.



                                Sheesh! What?! Me?? No - I would absolutely NEVER try the West Germany/DDR thing ... not at this GMT at least. That would be like discriminating between the Bundesliga and the pre-1963 German championship when listing Germany's champion clubs.

                                Deutschland it is - yes. Well done, Sir. Those five different venues you've listed too. But I wouldn't take my word for anything now. Think the idea is if I confuse myself enough on this thread I'll arrive at a state of nirvana where Rangers have won the Champions League six years straight, every victorious final played at a velodrome-friendly Par des Princes with a crowd consisting entirely of me, my wife, a Teutonic anal-retentive, one gendarme and Michel Hidalgo.

                                If Schalke don't have something to say about your Non-Domestic Champion Hosts claim, Queens Park might (Spiders have always used Hampden far, far more than embdy else) and Bari certainly will.

                                But just show them that picture of the old Parc des Princes - they'll melt.
                                Last edited by Alex Anderson; 19-08-2017, 01:35. Reason: PISH! I've romanticised SOOO MANY grounds - from Old Bayview to the Centenario - that naff emoting's just fucking inevitable.

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                                  Originally posted by Jon View Post
                                  "Those minutes for junior in Paris in 2000 certainly help them beat the Busquets men in their little paternalistic clasico."


                                  Yes, but he played a much more significant role in Amsterdam in 1997, lifting the cup as the winning captain.

                                  I do feel he doesn't get his dues when it comes to the history books ...
                                  I'm in no position to get pedantic about the fact Amsterdam was 98, Jon because it's not just the history books not giving him his dues: Bloody hell! Yes! He was captain of the side what ended the 32-year wait! That's unforgiveable on my part. I'm trivia-addled.

                                  Or am I just bitter?

                                  You see, my dad saw Sanchis Martinez at Rugby Park, Kilmarnock, during Real's 1965-66 campaign - the last one in which they won it before 1997-98.

                                  Yet I saw Spain for the first time in 1984 but not again til Euro96 - each side of Manolo/Sanchis Junior's international career. And I saw Real for the one and only time as they lifted the 2002 Champions League in Glasgow - the only one of their three-Champions-Leagues-in-five-years finals in which Sanchis Hontiyuelo didn't feature.

                                  That's it! I'm bitter that I didn't follow in my own father's European Cup footsteps. I'm therefore supressing the memory of Manolo Sanchis's very existence because of the personal failure it represents for me.

                                  No. Wait. I've double-checked with Jung: turns out I'm just fucking thick.
                                  Last edited by Alex Anderson; 19-08-2017, 01:52. Reason: Apparently Oedipus didn't see half the Real Madrid players his dad did. My mum attended the same school as Bobby Lennox.

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                                    Longest gap between staging two finals - Neckarstadion, 1959-1988, the latter presumably after a refurbish for Euro 88. Unfortunately named originally after Hitler.

                                    Neckarstadion has staged the final and the World Athletics Championships so is one of those with Multi-sports fame. But then so did Heysel which was obviously a dump and death trap.

                                    Comment


                                      ? Heysel's never staged the World Athletics Championships?

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                                        Alex's low key approach to puncturing my ill-conceived claims is extremely artful.

                                        The IAAF Worlds only started in 1983. Heysel was anathema after 85 and only rebuilt in the mid-90s.

                                        I expect that they will get there eventually, though they have tended to use larger venues in Europe recently.

                                        Comment


                                          Originally posted by Rogin the Armchair fan View Post
                                          ? Heysel's never staged the World Athletics Championships?
                                          Sorry, my bad. I meant that they both had multi-sports fame, as Heysel stages the van Damme athletics meet. It has also hosted the highest ever attendance for a tennis match, and a U2 concert.

                                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Baudouin_Stadium

                                          Comment


                                            Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
                                            Clarence Seedorf - winner with three clubs spread across 13 seasons.
                                            Yeah and I will never forget, seconds after the 2003 penalty shootout win over Juve which meant he'd won it with his third club, Milan (the first of two times with them), that fucking DICKHEAD Gary Newbon interviewing him on the Old Trafford pitch:

                                            "And you've set a new record now, Clarence - first man ever to win the European Cup with three different clubs ... how does that make you feel?"

                                            *Seedorf bursts into tears. The perfect answer. The whole watching world has the perfect answer to exactly how setting that historic record makes Clarence Seedorf feel*

                                            "Erm ... Clarence, if I could just get an answer from you ..."

                                            What? Leave him alone, Newbon! Seedorf's face-in-hands, sobbing like a baby. Great. That's how we'd all feel. You have your answer. It's a visual quote. Just let your cameraman film him for a few more seconds then turn to camera yourself and say "That, ladies and gentlemen, is how it feels when you become a football legend". Then, as you do a sotto voce "back to you in the studio, lads", perhaps even reach over and put an arm round the guy. But no. Not Our Gary:

                                            "Look, Clarence. There's a lot of people at home watching live right now who'd really like an answer ..."
                                            Last edited by Alex Anderson; 20-08-2017, 19:03. Reason: Almost all of that is wrong, especially the words. It probably wasn't even Newbon... or ITV. But Seedorf's tears weren't enuf

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                                              Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                                              Alex's low key approach to puncturing my ill-conceived claims is extremely artful.
                                              Hello. My name is Alex and I think I know more about the European Cup than I actually do.

                                              We all have the need to share European Cup trivia in the wider world. Only in here can we share our feelings behind that trivia, the weaknesses in our trivia; the lacunas in our lists - the faults in our Champions League Stars.

                                              My dad didn't take me to the 1976 European Cup final and I ... and I, erm ... (*sniff*) I never spoke to him about it ... I (*sob*) ... I never asked him why. Why, Dad?! WHY?! Why did I have to wait til 2002 (*sniffle*) - when I was almost 33 years old and fucking married, before I saw a German club playing in the European Cup final at Hampden??!! (*bubble*)... why did I have to wait until they didn't even call it the European Cup anymore?". I had to go on my own too. (*Snort*) Why didn't you ever take me, Dad? I had to stand next to Spaniards in C-U-Jimmy hats. They were more ginger than meeeee ...WHY DADDY? WHY??!!!...

                                              I'd love to ask him about this. But now he's gone. It's too late. He's gone to Seamill Hydro with my mum. They always do on a Sunday night. Might ask him tomorrow. But the Seamill Hydro is where Celtic stayed before all their big home European ties. Including the year they won it. Why Dad ... why ...?

                                              (Oh yeah - the doughnuts are for everyone. Help yourself.)

                                              The only rule about European Cup Trivia Club is you never talk about European Cup Trivia... without being corrected.



                                              As far as I can make out, seven of the stadiums to have staged the European Cup/Champions League final are in countries which have never provided a European champion ...

                                              While, if we remember the Olympic Stadium in Amsterdam was never Ajax's official home ground, TEN of the stadiums to have hosted the final are the home of an actual European champion club.
                                              Last edited by Alex Anderson; 21-08-2017, 11:17. Reason: Most of the time the final is not played on the ground of a club or clubs who've ever won the thing. Queens Park, Roma, Lazio

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                                                Real and Milan are the only clubs to have featured in the final in six of the seven decades in which it's been played. [SHITE! SPOT OLD MAN MISTAKE]

                                                Neither reached the final at any point in the 70's (coincidentally, the very decade in which both clubs contested their only European Cup-Winners' Cup finals).

                                                However, Inter lost the 1972 European Cup final to Ajax and Atletico the 74 final to Bayern, meaning Madrid and Milan are the only cities to have provided a European Cup/UEFA Champions League finalist in every decade of the competition's existence.
                                                Last edited by Alex Anderson; 23-08-2017, 12:53. Reason: 1ST CLAIM IS SHITE! Woke up at 2am realising Milan haven't reached it THIS decade (and needing to pee). Tempus fugit fuckwit.

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                                                  In 1989, 1990, 1994 and 1995, AC Milan reached the final and wore their lucky 'white' kit.

                                                  On each occasion, though, it was a special strip distinct from their usual white change strip.

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                                                    Love it, denishurley - absolutely love it. Total kit porn and European Cup/Champions League mythology all in one.

                                                    Much as I love the Real Madrid mythos, Milan are my favourite European cup/Champions League club - they were the ones doing it when I was at that sponge-like, hero-worshipy teens-to-early twenties period.

                                                    The 1994 final remains, for me, the greatest performance by any football team ever and, apart from the stuff they did on the pitch with their feet and heads, it had two extra special ingredients pushing it into the iconic:

                                                    (1) THE OLD WARHORSE COMEBACK. The legacy created by their 89 and 90 wins, as well as their loss in 93 final, and the suspension of Albertini and Baresi (to Klinsmann's expert diving in the semi), upon whom almost their entire domestic season had been built meant this was Ali versus Frazer in Zaire. Maldidni was out of position; Galli hadn't played first-team football for a half century; Panucci was too young AND on the wrong flank: We thought the Barca of Stoichkov and Romario - the Barca who'd lifted their hoodoo with their first European Cup at Wembley two years earlier - would not just win but win so comfortably it may even dilute the legacy of the Milan era which blew into our consciousness with that San Siro hammering of Real in the 88-89 semi. As Alan partridge would say, oh, how delicious those (thought) words were as they were rammed back down the throat of my mind.

                                                    (2) The all-white kit.

                                                    As I ranted previously, over the first page of this thread:

                                                    Originally posted by Alex Anderson View Post
                                                    Even though Real have also won it in all-black and all-violet, I don't think it's any coincidence that Bayern (twice), Aston Villa, Milan (six times), Steaua, Benfica and Marseille have also won the final in all-white (making it, at 22 times, the winningest "colour" combo in the European Cup/Champions League final. The all-red of Liverpool, Forest, Bayern, HSV in 1983 and Ajax in 1973 coming in a distant second on 12). It's saintly, it's pure - the opposite of what Real and UEFA truly are; but it's dazzling, other-worldly and glamorous - all the things Europe's premier club competition should be to the fans.
                                                    Obviously, Milan weren't doing it as any kind of homage to Real. They were busy almost replacing Real as the greatest club in the comp's history. But, while I knew Milan had got to the point of wearing all-white in the ECCC/UCL final even when they didn't have to, I had no idea that in some of those cases they were actually reneging on their usual away kits to do so.

                                                    Fantastic.

                                                    Maybe it's the strength of superstition in Italy. Maybe it's that replica kits don't sell as well there as they do in other countries (I've been to Milan and seen first-hand what the citizens think of anyone deviating from their very strict codes of dress for the various seasons of the year - wearing a football shirt as you passeggiata would see you strung up from the top of the Duomo). But this is as close to romance as you're likely to get in the Champions League days: A club eschewing commercial contracts - well, deviating on them if not genuinely dropping everything - just to ensure they have the fates on their side.

                                                    Gorgeous.

                                                    Also can't help wondering if there was another, more "local" reason for dropping the "Mediolanum" and "Motta" kits with the one colour band atop one black band, across the lower chest of a mostly-white European Cup final shirt:



                                                    Last edited by Alex Anderson; 22-08-2017, 13:44. Reason: And, yes, it was me. Walking down the Corso Buenos Aires in jeans and a white t-shirt - in APRIL! Nekid would've been safer.

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