UA has it right we're looking for EC/CL participants who have/had never won a domestic title, not mere reigning champions sneaking in ala Real in the second running of the competition 56-7 and dozens since. There are quite a few from the pre CL days
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Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View PostHoffenheim, for example?
Wil anyone ever beat Liverpool's 15 year wait between last domestic crown and next Champions League win?
Regarding Liverpool's record, Liverpool are the best bet probably- they look more likely to win the champions league than premier league. Sevilla could top them though. A 2018 CL win would come just 72 years after their last domestic title
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Originally posted by seand View PostUA has it right we're looking for EC/CL participants who have/had never won a domestic title, not mere reigning champions sneaking in ala Real in the second running of the competition 56-7 and dozens since. There are quite a few from the pre CL days
Never-champions in the Champions League is a great question - which everyone is kicking my ass on, I might add - but this aspect has piqued my interest even more pique-ely.
If, as seand confirms, we're not talking about reigning European Cup champions who hadn't won their domestic league (and when I say "European Cup" I mean European Champion Clubs Cup, i.e. pre-UCL days), I'm trying to work out how the hell else these clubs could have qualified for the original competition format if they had never been champions of their country.
Must be the special invitees for the first edition in 1955-56. So Hibs are out because they certainly had been champions of Scotland previously, even though Aberdeen were the 1954-55 champions.
So, off the top of my head, from that first competition, I know Rot Weiss Essen, Djurgardens and Stade de Reims were all Hibs opponents; I know Sport Clube de Portugal and Partizan Belgrade contested the first ever game in the old European Cup; and, of course Real Madrid won it by beating Reims in the final but I think they beat Milan in the semis.
Out of all that lot I reckon Djurgardens of Sweden are the best bet - the only bet - for never having won their domestic league and, even then, it's a massively shit bet.
I can't see the Germans having allowed anyone but their national champion into the competition and the little protagonist of Das Wunder von Bern, the movie, is a RWE supporter who curses his luck every time they lose at the start of a film set in 1954. I'm sure I remember thinking this was a deliberate joke by a director because the main character's country would win the World Cup that summer and his club would win the old German title the following year.
Please tell me you're not doing the "Rot Weiss Essen have never won the Bundesliga" thing, coz the Bundesliga didn't start til the Sixties.Last edited by Alex Anderson; 11-12-2017, 10:56. Reason: I'm just angry that I've been left trailing on the UCL aspect of the question.
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Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View PostWil anyone ever beat Liverpool's 15 year wait between last domestic crown and next Champions League win?
Must be a Liverpool thing, delayed gratification.
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Djurgårdens IF have seven Swedish titles, the first from 1954-55
Alex reminds me, however, that 1. FC Saarbrücken were in the initial competition and they have never won the German (or French) championship.
I'm not sure if they were forgotten with respect to those two countries or considered as representatives of the country they represented, which isn't on the list.
iSimilarly, Poland is not on the list, but Gwardia Warszawa from the initial competition also meet the criterion.
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Saarbrucken!!! Yes!! Nice one, ursus. And Gwardia too? Kool.
Were MTK Budapest in it? Perhaps in their "Voros Lobogo" phase? Don't know if they ever won a Hungarian title under the Voros Lobogo label so ... maybe? ... on a technicality ...?
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They were in it as Vörös Lobogó, but had won the title in 1953, when I assume they were already playing under that name.
MTK have 23 Hungarian championships, but it is a bit difficult to determine just how many (if any) they won under each of their various names, particularly as my Hungarian is rather non-existent
1888–1926: Magyar Testgyakorlók Köre
1926–1940: Hungária Magyar Testgyakorlók Köre Futball Club
1940–1945: Hungária Magyar Testgyakorlók Köre Futball Club feloszlása
1942–1945: Magyar Testgyakorlók Köre feloszlatása
1945–1950: Magyar Testgyakorlók Köre
1950–1951: Budapesti Textiles Sport Egyesület
1951–1953: Budapesti Bástya Sport Egyesület
1953–1956: Budapesti Vörös Lobogó Sport Egyesület
1956–1975: Magyar Testgyakorlók Köre
1975–1990: Magyar Testgyakorlók Köre-Vörös Meteor Sport Kör
1990–1995: Magyar Testgyakorlók Köre
1995–1998: Magyar Testgyakorlók Köre Futball Club
1998–2003: Magyar Testgyakorlók Köre Hungária Futball Club
2003– : Magyar Testgyakorlók Köre Budapest Futball Club
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Ony bit of Hungarian I know is "Voros Lobogo".
Only bit of Serbo-Croat I know is "Crvena Zvezda".
Only bits of Russian I know are "Krasnodar" and "Krasno-belye".
Red flag, red star, reds' gift and red-whites. My vocabulary might be as limited as my colour palette but the European football trivia lets us all at least dip into foreign languages. See, mum - it's not a waste of time; it's educational!
if I start cheating I won't stop, ursus so I'm not gonnae Google MTK to see if they won the league in 1954-55 but, if they did, you've shown they definitely did it as Red Flag and so, therefore, couldn't qualify for seand's conundrum even on that technicality.
Big question now is, seand, are your never-wons of the pre-UCL years all confined to that first edition of the tournament - the part-invitational 1955-56 season? I can't think how else any never-champion could have qualified before the Champions League expansions began.Last edited by Alex Anderson; 11-12-2017, 14:52. Reason: which is what makes it so DARNED intriguing
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Nice work UA. Gwardia and Saarbrucken from the first edition. (They're not the only pre CL ones though) Saarbrucken is an interesting one- they were there representing Saar though they played in the German regional leagues and were never champions of Germany, France or indeed Saarland. A precursor to the Welsh clubs rotating involvement in the Cup Winners Cup while playing in the English pyramid, and the odd modern phenomenon of Swiss second division side Vaduz representing Liechtenstein year after year in Europa League.
MTK - Voros Logobo have to be considered the same club, dont think there's any question about that. Don't get me started on 1950s Hungarian football or I'll be off on a solo run like Alex on Sainte.
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Alex, there were occasions on which runners-up participated in the early years of the competition.
One I know off the top of my head is Sevilla being invited to the second or third go-round after a season in which Real Madrid had won both the European Cup and La Liga.
That said, they don't "count" for these purposes, as they had previously won a Spanish title.
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This is seriously interesting. Both the Vaduz thing - I had never looked into it - and the Seville invitation in the 1950s.
Incredible the lengths my brain will go to in order to retain its ignorance: I managed to compartmentalise my knowledge of Sevilla's participation in the early European Cup years along with the lazy assumption they must have won la liga during Real's run of five straight ECCCs, and never let it interfere in any way with the knowledge Sevilla had been Spanish champs just once - in the 1940s. It's a strange kind of genius.
Anyway - "just coz I got it wrong doesn't mean I don't know stuff" bleating aside - are we then looking at San Marinese "champions" who only ever played in Italian regionals? Or Gibraltarians who compete in ... no I can't even finish that sentence - but, ye know what I mean, are there other answers along the Vaduz lines?
Berwick Rangers and Wellington Phoenix are involved, aren't they? I can't prove it but goddamm it I just know they're involved somehow. Feel it in my water. Them and Catalans Dragons ...
Or, in the brief window between the iron curtain collapsing and the Champions League starting, did a whole lot of newly formed/independent states enter "champions" without having had time to have gone through a full domestic season?
I'm meaning all the Soviet states as well as the old Yugoslav ones?
And/or ... did the Czechs or Slovaks rush in an uncrowned first European Cup representative only on the basis that club had finished highest in the last season of the Czechoslovakian top flight?
Oh, and, if you want to go off on one about 1950s Hungarian football, seand, you go ahead sir. One guaranteed reader here anyway.
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I always forget that Hibs reached the semi-final of that first European Cup despite only being invited due to some underhand tactics in place of reigning champions Aberdeen. Another absentee champion in that initial competition was Willem II, who "refrained" from entering and were replaced by second placed PSV Eindhoven. Whether Willem II did in fact "refrain" (the verb used in the only source I can find) or were forced out for the bigger PSV, I need to investigate further.
That Hibs who only finished 5th and 15 points (during 2 points for a win) behind Aberdeen in the league could then rampage their way to the European Cup semi final with their celebrated "famous five" forward line, shows the relative strength of Scottish football in that period.
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Yeah but the Royal Court of Burgundy, despite two Cup-Winners' Cup triumphs and a Fairs Cup semi, never actually played in the European Cup so ...
Brilliant name, Geoffrey. Great shout. Like most other Brits I was very tickled with Ricky van Wolfswinkel and Jan Vennegoor of Hesselink but, for no reason other than it just sounds so cool, my favourite name of any ECC/UCL player was always Tranquillo Barnetta.
Had to look him up and, according to Wiki, Hypoliet Geraard van den Bosch - nicknamed "Poly" - later had three years as manager of Venezuela. There's something perfect about that. Of course he managed Venezuela.
Last edited by Alex Anderson; 12-12-2017, 10:24. Reason: Poly put the kettle on, Poly put the kettle on - then manage the only South American country which prefers baseball to fitba
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Originally posted by Geoffrey de ste Croix View PostThat Hibs who only finished 5th and 15 points (during 2 points for a win) behind Aberdeen in the league could then rampage their way to the European Cup semi final with their celebrated "famous five" forward line, shows the relative strength of Scottish football in that period.
Rangers in semis in 1960, Dundee in 1962; Celtic are winners, runners-up and twice more beaten semi-finalists from 67 to 74; Dundee United in semis in 1983 and Rangers a goal from the first UCL final in 1993.
Amazing stat is Gordon Smith, a member of that Famous Five, played in the European Cup with three different Scottish teams - none of which were the Old Firm.
Sorry to go on about this again but had Smith done as well with Hearts as he did with Hibs and Dundee, Scotland would be the only country ever to have three cities each providing two different semi-finalists for the European Cup/Champions League.
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Yer right Rogin - aye - and, in the interests of impartiality, I've made exactly the same boob with their neighbours. Dundee were Scottish champs in 1962 ... European Cup semi-finalists the following season.
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Just on the subject of non-champions in EC/CL, the first edition was an interesting one. Only seven of the 16 entrants were national champions: Real (ESP), Stade de Reims (FRA), Rot Weiss Essen (FRG), Djurgardens (SWE), Anderlecht (BEL), Milan (ITA), AGF Aarhus (DEN). The entry of Saarbrucken (Saar/GER) was a special case (and one of our never-champions).
Among the other 8 participants I’d love to know the politics behind certain clubs being nominated ahead of others. Were some clubs pulling strings? Were some clubs not bothered participating with the inconvenience and expense involved?
Gwardia (POL) Never-champs. Gwardia finished fourth in 1955, with Legia/CWKS having just won their first league title, as nominal representatives of the army sports club.
Sporting (POR)- Benfica were champions, but Sporting had won the previous 4.
Servette (SUI)- La-Chaux-de-Fonds had just completed back-to-back titles, their only Swiss titles. Servette hadn’t won the title since 1950 and finished sixth in 1955.
PSV (NED)- Willem II were champions, PSV not champions since 1951
Rapid (AUT)- First Vienna were champions, Rapid third in 1955, but strong recent history
Voros Lobogo/MTK (HUN)- Honved had won back-to-back titles. MTK had a strong history- lots of political intrigue with MTK/Voros Lobogo ostensibly representing the secret police and Honved nominally representing the army. MTK and Honved were also the favoured teams where national coach Gustav Sebes stockpiled his best players. Perhaps MTK were considered a stronger bet to represent the country.
Hibernian (SCO)- Aberdeen won their first title in 1955.
Partizan (YUG)- Hajduk were champions with Partizan 5th
To answer Alex’s stream of consciousness musings on potential European Cup era never-champions, there was no Vaduz and no San Marino ‘champions’. No former Soviet/Yugoslav states nominating non-champions.
And by my calculation we still have 11 Champions League era never-champs to find:
Spain (Mallorca, Villarreal, Osasuna, Malaga) + 1
CRO x1
POR (Boavista, Vitoria) +2
NOR x1
CZE x2
UKR (Metalist) + 1
RUS x2
AUT x1
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Originally posted by seand View PostAmong the other 8 participants I’d love to know the politics behind certain clubs being nominated ahead of others. Were some clubs pulling strings? Were some clubs not bothered participating with the inconvenience and expense involved?
And, of course, English champs Chelsea were told not to get involved in all that Jonny foreigner nonsense by the FA. Stamford Bridge obeyed. As would have the directors at Old Trafford in the following two seasons if it hadn't been for the visionary insistence of Matt Busby - something he would always feel wrongly guilty about after the Munich air crash.
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- Apr 2011
- 2053
- A bottom-bottom wata-wata in Lake Titicaca
- Atlético Machu Picchu, Lake Titicaca Pan flutes FC
- Buñuelos Arequipeños
Originally posted by Alex Anderson View PostGoing by the nice link Geoffrey posted above, no-one had more string-pulling done on their behalf than Hibs.
And, of course, English champs Chelsea were told not to get involved in all that Jonny foreigner nonsense by the FA.
Hardaker famously said (to Brian Glanville, in an off-the-cuff convo): "I don't like dealing with Europe. Too many wogs and dagoes."
It was Chelsea’s first League title and it came so unexpectedly that until recently Chelsea were still giving the 1955 League winners a small bonus every Xmas! (Can’t remember how much or where I read that but I defo read or heard it about 7-10 years ago. I have a feeling it was in relation with Bobby Smith, maybe when he died in 2010, or could have been via Jimmy Greaves. I wonder if this nice little Crimbo tradition wasn’t stopped by Abramovich about a decade ago, not sure. Second league title came 50 years later, in 2005, maybe that’s when it stopped.)
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Aye, Hardaker and the Football League - of course, Kev7. Much as I might try to fight it I've been successfully brainwashed by the 1992=Year Zero creationists.
That's a lovely story about the bonuses.
And while yer absolutely right about it being a liberty re Aberdeen in 1955, Lang Spoon, it's at least nice to know that for once (a) Scotland didn't blindly follow in England's footsteps re "foreign" tournaments and (b) it wasn't Rangers or Celtic's fault.
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- Apr 2011
- 2053
- A bottom-bottom wata-wata in Lake Titicaca
- Atlético Machu Picchu, Lake Titicaca Pan flutes FC
- Buñuelos Arequipeños
Apols to Roman Abramovich (I’m sure he reads us): Chelsea didn’t stop giving a bonus to the 1955 League winners circa 2005 as I mistakenly conjectured last night, they still do (4 are left from the 1954-55 squad). Well, they still did in 2010 anyhow, to Bobby Smith’s delight (he was broke in his twilight years):
Here’s something for Spurs fans to chew on. Bobby told me: “I am always made very welcome when I go to White Hart Lane, but my first club Chelsea go further. Every Christmas they send a cheque for £1,500 to all those who were in the squad for the 1955 League championship win … and I hardly got a kick because manager Ted Drake hated my guts!”
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