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  1. #51
    Kev7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ursus arctos View Post
    Dennis Tueart was my favourite Cosmo by miles. He regularly outplayed all of his better compensated teammates.
    Tueart rather than Chinaglia, Beckenbauer, Pele, Carlos Alberto or Neeskens?

    Don’t get me wrong, I like Tueart and I really think he was underrated or at any rate that he didn't get the career - and international recognition - his talent would have deserved (I must declare an interest here though, not only am I a Black Cat but I’ve also had the privilege and pleasure of meeting and chatting with him for a few minutes, about Cosmos, New York, Jim Baxter, S'land etc. very nice fella, I’ll elaborate if you want) but I am interested as to what your reasons are for placing him well above the many greats who have donned the Cosmos shirt.

    Incidentally, Beckenbauer was Tueart’s all-time favourite player, I don’t know if it’s because he was such in awe of Beckenbauer playing alongside him in such a star-studded Cosmos side that his admiration clouded his judgement or whether because Der Kaiser was still truly exceptional at Cosmos even at 32-35 (the slower pace of the game, the lesser technical demands etc. would obviously have favoured him but he was hardly the only one in this case, besides we’re comparing with the rest of the field here, in the context of the NASL, so ceteris paribus and all that jazz).

    Pele was 35 when he joined Cosmos so, in theory, could be forgiven for not busting a gut like many do, but looking at his record and a few YT clips of this Cosmos era, he seems to have done very well at Cosmos (notwithstanding what I’ve just touched upon about the different type of game). I would imagine that despite his age he could still outshine the oppo and boss the game. Whether you saw him play live or on TV, what did you make of him?

    I obliquely (and diplomatically) asked Tueart about the level of commitment of "ageing superstars" in general (but with a much keener interest on how they were performing at Cosmos when he was there - their work ethic, their professionalism, competitive edge and so on), I can’t quite remember how he phrased his reply but he didn't fall for it and basically swore blind that they were still fanatically competitive, wore the shirt with pride and worked their socks off at all time, that the Cosmos top brass at the time (Warner Communications) demanded results, didn't take fools gladly as we say in Britain and would never have tolerated anyone, let alone a star player, treating their well-remunerated time there as a pre-retirement jolly. I suppose any player would stick up for their fellow professionals and come up with something like that, especially to a total stranger like myself, hence my Q to you since you saw them play. Or maybe it’s too long ago and you don’t remember… (well, we’ve all been there or are heading in that direction anyhow!).

  2. #52
    Alex Anderson's Avatar
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    European Champion Clubs:
    Real Madrid
    Benfica
    Milan
    Internazionale
    Celtic
    Manchester United
    Feyenoord
    Ajax
    FC Bayern München
    Liverpool
    Nottingham Forest
    Aston Villa
    HSV
    Juventus
    Steaua Bucharest
    Porto
    PSV
    Crvena Zvezda
    Barcelona
    Olympique Marseille
    Borussia Dortmund
    Chelsea

    So that's 22 in total. Listed them in chronological order and first thing you notice is we've had one new champion in last 20 years. So, while the Champions League rebranding provided us with a new European champion in its first and fifth season (Marseille and Dortmund respectively), the continual format changes in its early years were clearly designed to prevent it happening again - to protect the power base, to keep the winners' club exclusive. Clearly, it has worked.

    A whopping nine clubs who won the European Champion Clubs' Cup have so far failed to lift the Champions League (Benfica, Celtic, Feyenoord; Villa, Forest, HSV; Steaua, PSV and Red Star). But only three of the 22 listed above have won only the Champions League. Even Porto winning it in 2004 was a minor miracle, buried slightly by the fact they'd already won the old European Cup. And I feel Wenger getting Arsenal to within a red card of lifting the Champions League was a feat significantly against odds which, in 2006, were already being stacked massively against new names on the honour roll.

    If you want into this elite group now you need billions. Your club history only counts for something if it has enabled you to monopolise all European children and most Asian markets. Abramovich got Chelsea a seat at the table and the petro-trillionaire, theocracy-powered empires of PSG and Manchester City are the only new European champions I'm likely to see before I die ... or before a gay-hating gulf state dictator decides to buy Rangers.

    But, most important of all, HSV are the only one of the 22 I haven't seen in the flesh.
    Last edited by Alex Anderson; 13-08-2017 at 13:27. Reason: Wouldn't want you thinking this is some sort of discussion. It's just about stats. And lists. Mostly lists.

  3. #53
    Satchmo Distel's Avatar
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    I'm not sure that Benica, Arsenal or Liverpool could win it now so 2004-2007 was the last gasp of that tier of club. Inter and Chelsea won it despite being weaker than Barcelona and/or Bayern those years due to parking the bus and suckering on the break, which can still happen but less commonly. Dortmund under Klopp came closest of teams playing more open football, while Arsenal's performances always conceded the fatal away goal(s).

  4. #54
    Alex Anderson's Avatar
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    Exactly, Satchmo. It's almost like the Champions League is slightly embarrassed by its cloyingly open-minded forebear, like the hippy commune-raised son who becomes a merchant banker. Or Richard Branson.

    The last four Champions Leagues have been won by Barca or Real Madrid. This is UCL Nirvana. It has come home. This is what it's all been about - the state of affairs the Champions League rebrand has always been trying to engender. The European Cup is now el clasico with more scenery. It's the realisation of a UEFA dream borne almost three decades ago, when Real drew Napoli in the first round of the old European Cup - something that simply couldn't be allowed to happen again.

    You can only be happy for those executives who fought so hard to design a competition without any competition, within or outwith, which attracts more fans and money than any real competition. I mean they've even made Man United embarrassed to have won the Europa League. The Europa League - for fucks sake - SECOND TIER CLUBS HAVE WON THAT! How tacky! Get rid!

    The Nyon dream is manifest. I'm tearing up here ...
    Last edited by Alex Anderson; 13-08-2017 at 14:25. Reason: sarcastic enough? Felt I was being too subtle ...

  5. #55
    ursus arctos's Avatar
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    Kev, first of all, I was never a Cosmos supporter (my "domestic" club was and remains Vancouver Whitecaps), so that needs to be taken into account.

    Second, Tueart was a "favourite", not the "best" Cosmo I saw. There was something about his combination of skill and commitment that appealed to me, as well as his non-diva personality.

    But he was telling you a pack of lies. The superstar Cosmos often walked through the paces, especially (but not only) when the opposition was not terribly good and/or the conditions were not to their liking (first generation artificial turf was universally hated, and matches were often played in extreme heat). They often played better in "prestige friendlies" than league matches.

    Pele was "only" 35 when he arrived, but he had been playing a ridiculous number of matches every year since he was 17, and was largely a spent force. As the clips show, he was still capable of outstanding play, but that came only in flashes. Beckenbauer was much more consistent and in better condition (as confirmed by the fact that he went to HSV after Cosmos). He would be my pick for the "best" Cosmo I ever saw live and there were games I saw that he controlled just as completely as he did in his heyday at Bayern. Neeskens never seemed very interested in the NASL.

    In many ways, the guys who stood out if you watched Cosmos regularly were the "lesser" overseas stars, players like Tueart, Wim Rijsbergen (Feyenoord and Holland), Vladislav Bogićević (Crvena Zvezda and Yugoslavia) and Andranik Eskandarian (Ararat Tehran, Taj, and Iran). Chinaglia was also extremely effective as a goalscorer, but did little else (and yet NASL Chinaglia was miles better than NASL Gerd Mueller, whose drinking worsened during his time here).

    That pattern was largely true of the NASL as a whole. The players who consistently put on the best performances were not the "best" players, but rather those who combined talent and commitment in a league that was full of players who lacked one of those traits.

  6. #56
    Alex Anderson's Avatar
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    Oh and Juventus have ruined the European Cup final red card trivia.

    Firstly, Paolo Montero deserved the crown. The mad bastard Uruguayan spend his whole career earning the right to become the first player ever red-carded in a European Cup/Champs League final. And when Juve made the 2003 final, that record was still available. We had the Argentinians doing it with the World Cup final in 1990 so it was time for their wee neighbour, and hardest soccer nation on earth, to strike back. Montero was the perfect ambassador. Of pain.

    But the horrible thing about big games is they bring out the best in great players. That night against Milan in Manchester, Montero was utterly filthy - but only in a way the slow-mo TV replays could detect. His ability to hide his brutality from the naked ref's eye was rising to the Old Trafford occasion.

    As we know, Juve lost that final on pens. And we all know they'd have probably won it if Pavel Nedved, that year's Ballon d'Or, hadn't got himself the most stupid yellow card of all time in the dying embers of the semi-final v Real, which he had run. But the main heartbreak for me was Montero completing the game without so much as a yellow card. I'm sure this got to him too. It'll be what led to him missing his penalty in the subsequent shoot-out. Sixteen red cards in Serie A but, when it came to the big one, he shat it.

    And I'd tell him that to his face. Yes I would. Maybe.

    So, yeah, instead we get Jens bloody Lehmann, three years later, for a professional foul. Jens Lehmann. That's the first man ever sent off in this hallowed final. Not even a hard case, particularly. Plus this was in Arsenal's first and so far only final appearance. A great, iconic club but not really an iconic "European Cup" club.

    Disappointed.

    But then, two years after that, we get Didier Drogba going off for a wee sissy slap in Moscow. Drogba and Lehmann were involved in the most pathetic, I'm Telling Mum On You "spat" I've ever seen in a football match - they were both the opposite of Monster Montero, really - but this did mean a pattern was emerging: Only London clubs had players sent off in a European Cup/Champions League final. Eeeh, and ah do so love a pattern, ah do.

    But then, back in Britain, another South American losing the final with Juve, Juan Cuadrado goes and spoils it. This June. Paolo Montero can last 120 minutes on the pitch but he can't manage a dozen?

    Disappointing. Very disappointing.
    Last edited by Alex Anderson; 13-08-2017 at 14:56. Reason: But most disappointing of all was the fact he didn't kick Ramos into the stand. I mean, just WELLY HIM, Juan. Give it some.

  7. #57
    Alex Anderson's Avatar
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    My fav piece of European Cup trivia:

    After the 1958 final at the Heysel, Real Madrid were presented with the trophy by 21-year-old Warren Beatty.

  8. #58
    ursus arctos's Avatar
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    Medals, not trophy, and there is doubt about even that.

    The Prince Alexander theory makes rather more sense, especially given that Beatty hadn't even made his film debut at the time.

  9. #59
    Alex Anderson's Avatar
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    Yes, erm, that's why it's my - ye know - my "favourite" piece of trivia. Huh. Ye know, ironically. Coz it's, like, sooooo saaaaad that washed-up losers actually believe it! Hilarious.

    Same kinda conspiracy nut-jobs who think Rangers would've won the first Champions League if Bernard Tapie hadn't bribed CSKA and Brugge ...

    (Come on, ursus - leave me something man ... I'm begging ye ...)

    Just to prove my point, I will now tell yese my serious, proper, authentic, beardy, artismal fav piece of European Cup final trivia: No-one can claim, as Cherie Lunghi's character did of another character in The Manageress, to have footage of the entire 90mins of the classic Real v Eintracht final of 1960: The BBC broadcast broke down for a few minutes (I'm picturing the number 11 in my aura) so no complete footage exists.

    ... or maybe it was shown live on telly and only the official Beeb recording is damaged ... was that it? Can't remember properly now ... now I think about it, maybe it only went off air for 11 seconds ... or Kenneth Wolstenholme wore a blindfold at Hampden for 11 minutes and guessed what was going on and no-one noticed ... or Prince Rainier of Monaco was flying over Glasgow on a pink unicorn and streaked bollock naked across the Eintracht box before Puskas could take Real's dodgy penalty and the Foreign Office told the Beeb to burn the evidence ... look- I DON'T KNOW ANYMORE! - I'VE LOST ALL CONFIDENCE! ...

    ... but with 17 minutes being the longest gap between any two goals in that final, it's a Christmas miracle we have all ten recorded for posterity.

    Altho I have seen Cinecamera colour footage, shot at pitch level, so I suppose that guy in The Manageress could have cut and pasted ... if he had proper movie-making know-how ... ye know, like Warren Beatty ... seen here presenting the 1994 Ballon d'Or to Hristo Stoichkov ...



    ... and here directing Madonna in a scene from Dick Tracy ...

    Last edited by Alex Anderson; 13-08-2017 at 20:03. Reason: In a totally unrelated matter, Dennis Tueart had bad breath and talked funny.

  10. #60
    ursus arctos's Avatar
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    Warren has aged rather better than the Prince


  11. #61
    Alex Anderson's Avatar
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    22 medals, mate - takes its toll.

    The trophy would have killed him.

  12. #62
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    Rinus Israel - Feyenoord v Celtic in 1970 - is the only guy with the name of a country to score in the final.

    Honourable mention to Luis Aragones (!974 for Atletico v Bayern).

  13. #63
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    Atletico Madrid the only club to have lost three finals without ever having won it, beating Stade de Reims and Valencia into joint-second on the Painfully Close list.

  14. #64
    ad hoc's Avatar
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    The EC winning coach with multiple versions of his name, the most commonly used of which is actually the least correct:
    Ștefan Kovács
    He will have been named Kovács István by his parents, but had his name changed to Ștefan Kovács by the Communist regime in Romania, though in Romanian he is usually referred to as Ştefan Covaci. (In Hungarian he is usually called by the diminutive Pisti, and that has been taken on in Romanian too where the language demands that a diacritical is added in Piști)

  15. #65
    Alex Anderson's Avatar
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    Scored in the final of both the European Cup/UCL and World Cup:
    Juan Schiaffino
    Ferenc Puskas
    Gerd Muller
    Zinedine Zidane

    Scored in the final of the European Cup/UCL and has the same name as a completely separate, different, unrelated bloke who scored in the World Cup final:
    Carlos Alberto (Porto 2004)
    Ronaldo (Man U 2008, Real Madrid 2014, 2017)

    [Jair da Costa, who scored the only goal of the 1965 final for Inter may have been called Jairzinho when he was young and wee, as happens in Brazil, but I have no proof. The restraining order doesn't help.]

  16. #66
    Alex Anderson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ad hoc View Post
    The EC winning coach with multiple versions of his name, the most commonly used of which is actually the least correct:
    Ștefan Kovács
    He will have been named Kovács István by his parents, but had his name changed to Ștefan Kovács by the Communist regime in Romania, though in Romanian he is usually referred to as Ştefan Covaci. (In Hungarian he is usually called by the diminutive Pisti, and that has been taken on in Romanian too where the language demands that a diacritical is added in Piști)
    Feel I must point out that I was in the middle of my wee post featuring my "Jair/Jairzinho" nod to Brazilian/Portugese naming customs WHILE ad hoc was posting this. Just because my post comes immediately after his in this thread please don't think I was in any way trying to keep up with him. Who could keep up with that.

    This is brilliant stuff, sir. Fascinating. He had his name changed by the regime?! Fuck me.

    Allow the standard 3 to 4 months before you spot me on another thread trying to pass it off as something I'd always known.
    Last edited by Alex Anderson; 14-08-2017 at 13:05. Reason: You can call me Eck, Alexander or even Al. But the regime hasn't been invented which can get away with calling me Sandy.

  17. #67
    ad hoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Anderson View Post

    This is brilliant stuff, sir. Fascinating. He had his name changed by the regime?! Fuck me.
    .
    Yes. Hungarian Romanians had their names Romanianised by the regime. But only their given names. So my father in law - László - became Ladislau. This was also true of Bölöni László.
    I

  18. #68
    ursus arctos's Avatar
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    See also Miodrag Belodedić / Miodrag Belodedici

    I've never understood why "the West" is ok with Chinese name order yet insists on reversing the names of Hungarians.

  19. #69
    ad hoc's Avatar
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    The name order thing gets really confusing when both names are possible given names. I still haven't actually worked out whether former Hearts manager (and also Hungarian Romanian) Csaba László is Csaba László or László Csaba, since both those names are very common given names.

  20. #70
    Kev7's Avatar
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    Thanks ursus for the info and your impressions (your last post to me), interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by ursus arctos View Post
    But he was telling you a pack of lies. The superstar Cosmos often walked through the paces, especially (but not only) when the opposition was not terribly good and/or the conditions were not to their liking (first generation artificial turf was universally hated, and matches were often played in extreme heat). They often played better in "prestige friendlies" than league matches.
    I certainly was very sceptical about that one and got the feeling that Tueart was gilding the lily on this (sensitive) topic (that said, let's give him the benefit of the doubt and put it down to nostalgia, he loved New York, the US and his short time there) but, as I wrote, players will stick up for their fellow professionals so I wasn’t expecting him to spill the beans either with warts-and-all tales of "over here overpaid and over sexed" lazy veteran stars.

    Given the level of the NASL, the context (what you describe) etc. it’s hardly surprising that big stars generally played within themselves. Cosmos were very successful during the years we’re talking about (1975-1983) and hardly needed to break sweat to win but you’re only as good as the opposition you face as they say.

    Quote Originally Posted by ursus arctos View Post
    Second, Tueart was a "favourite", not the "best" Cosmo I saw. There was something about his combination of skill and commitment that appealed to me, as well as his non-diva personality. [...] In many ways, the guys who stood out if you watched Cosmos regularly were the "lesser" overseas stars, players like Tueart, Wim Rijsbergen (Feyenoord and Holland), Vladislav Bogićević (Crvena Zvezda and Yugoslavia) and Andranik Eskandarian (Ararat Tehran, Taj, and Iran). Chinaglia was also extremely effective as a goalscorer, but did little else (and yet NASL Chinaglia was miles better than NASL Gerd Muller, whose drinking worsened during his time here). That pattern was largely true of the NASL as a whole. The players who consistently put on the best performances were not the "best" players, but rather those who combined talent and commitment in a league that was full of players who lacked one of those traits.
    I think that the main difference between the big stars, who by and large played at a canter, and players like Tueart, is twofold: their age and the reasons why they joined the NASL (apart from/alongside money I mean). The big names were demob-happy and in pre-retirement mode; Tueart wasn’t, and therein lies the difference.

    Tueart was only 28 when he joined Cosmos, similar age to those you’ve mentioned (Bogićević, Eskandarian, Rijsbergen – whom I remember from his Sporting Club de Bastia days, a modest club with uncanny parallels with the West Brom of the time, all French kids like myself were very familiar the team as they’d acquired the country’s favourite second team tag the same way the Baggies did with Atkinson in the late 1970’s – AS Saint-Étienne fulfilled that role too but Sainté were seen as much bigger than minnow Bastia who finished 6th in 1975, 3rd in 1977, 5th in 1978 and of course that legendary European épopée in the 1977-78 season, some fantastic players in that side, those names and memories are etched forever in French people’s minds, Claude Papi, Johnny Rep, the criminally underrated Dragan Džajić etc.; they soon returned to the "ventre-mouiste" doldrums, i.e mid-table anonymity, or mid-table mediocrity as some say - it depends on the club I suppose...).

    Tueart still had a winning mindset and a strong professional ethos when he was signed, he may have been relatively unknown internationally (because of the England team and English football in general being in the wilderness – the Revie era, hooliganism etc.) but he certainly wasn’t a nobody in England. Let’s remind ourselves that he was brought in to fill in Pele’s boots, for 240 grand, a huge sum then as only shortly before, the British record stood at 350K, before being upped to 500K, Keegan to Hamburg. This high amount was justified by Tueart being an England international in a superb Man City side who had finished 8th in 1976 (Tueart: 24 goals), 2nd in 1977 and only 1 point behind Liverpool (18 League goals for Tueart) and 4th in 1978 (12 League goals in 17 matches – less game time due to a deteriorating relationship with the manager). In fact, Tueart was the first England international to join the NASL full time. In short, he was talented and had the bit between his teeth (he suspected he’d be returning back to England to play at a high level, and was hoping to stay in contention for further England caps even if he knew it would be difficult).

    The way he came to joining Cosmos is also interesting (in direct relation to what I've just written in regard to his rel. with the then Man City gaffer). You may well know this so apologies if you do but the reason why he unexpectedly left Man City where he was in the best player – with Colin Bell, Brian Kidd & ex Sunderland legend Dave Watson – to join the NASL at only 28 – in contrast to the majority of over the hill NASL-bound European or South-American players looking for a last big payday – was that he fell out with the Man City manager, Tony Book, essentially for a positional reasons first and I think that it just then escalated into a full-on falling-out.

    When City bought Southampton legend Mick Channon in 1977 (Soton then stuck in the second tier in the mid-70s), Book asked Tueart to play on the wing and stay there, thereby reducing his role to a traditional touchline-hugging wideman (a winger who "gets paint on his boots" as people used to say) and Tueart, who preferred to be used in a more creative, centre-forward role, was not best pleased. He didn’t play much that 1977-78 season and therefore asked the chairman-owner (the eccentric Peter Swales, a flash businessman) to release him, which Swales did but only very reluctantly (he really wasn’t keen to let him go – so much so that when Book was sacked by Swales, Tueart went back to City, then under the stewardship of maverick Malcolm Allison, for the second time – or second time and a half I should say as of course he'd been far more than simply Joe Mercer’s assistant from 1965 to 1971).

    However, with a disgraced Don Revie having swanned off into his golden Arabic sunset never to be seen again in England, and Tueart being nearly 30 on his return from Cosmos, and into a new era initiated by Ron Greenwood post the fractious and underwhelming Revie years, he wasn’t able to add to his meagre tally of 6 international caps even though he did very well for mid-table (and dysfunctional) Man City in his second spell there.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHI-Tr3CVxw

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9gX...utu.be&t=4m23s
    Last edited by Kev7; 14-08-2017 at 14:18.

  21. #71
    ursus arctos's Avatar
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    Never a problem, Kev.

    I also have very fond memories of that Bastia side from week old copies of L'Equipe and month old copies of France Football and Onze. Then there's the Jacques Tati film, of course. It's very sad that they seem to be on the verge of extinction after decades of mismanagement. Though in many ways they are a manifestation of deeper problems in Corsica.

    I tank yr interpretation of the general dynamic in the NASL is spot on. Another category of player worth mentioning is the guys who came early in their careeers, of whom Trevor Francis (Detroit Epress) and Peter Beardsley (Vancouver Whitecaps) are the best examples. They were also highly motivated.

    I have a Man City mad friend of my vintage who is convinced that the club's history would have been completely different if Book hadn't driven Tueart off. As it happens, Dave Watson also played for Vancouver in the early 80s. The Whitecaps were the most "British" of the NASL clubs in terms of mindset, ground and lifestyle, and other than the extensive travel, it was an easy place for British pros to settle.

  22. #72
    Walt Flanagans Dog's Avatar
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    I'm not going to match the quality of posts in this discussion but always remember when I was a kid seeing a photo of Tueart training in the sunshine at Meadowlands, probably in Football Handbook (a publication that was NASL-mad at the time), and it looked like another planet entirely. It accompanied an interview with him about how brilliant everything was.

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    Giants Stadium in the Meadowlands was unique in the NASL for its size, modernity and the size of its crowds, and it was very common for visiting teams to essentially give up before they entered the pitch. It was the only ground in the league that looked like the best European grounds of the time (and, having been built for the NFL, had better amenities for average spectators).



    The Whitecaps, on the other hand, played at the Empire Stadium, which would have felt as familiar to British First Division players as the city did, especially as local supporter culture was entirely British in inspiration (as was the pint and pie-centric menu on offer).



    In the 70s and early 80s, before the economic boom and the influx of wealthy Asians, Vancouver was almost certainly the most British major city in North America, the kind of place where high tea was served regularly, provincial UK newspapers were available within two days and one could buy Shoot! the week it came out.
    Last edited by ursus arctos; 14-08-2017 at 15:15.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ursus arctos View Post
    Another category of player worth mentioning is the guys who came early in their careeers, of whom Trevor Francis (Detroit Epress) and Peter Beardsley (Vancouver Whitecaps) are the best examples. They were also highly motivated.
    Yes, very good point, I had forgotten about this overlooked category.

    (in passing, a journalist acquaintance of mine, who knows past NUFC players and current staff very well, really cannot stand one of the two players mentioned above. I can't unfortunately repeat his exact words here but let's say that he finds all past NUFC players at least OK and generally speaking has a lot of time for them -bar the odd one or two of course- except for this one cockwomble, the only one who really triggers his ire whenever his name is mentioned...).
    Last edited by Kev7; 14-08-2017 at 14:55.

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    Intriguing . . .

    To (sort of) get the thread back on topic:

    I believe that Jean-Francois Larios was the only man to star for AS Saint-Étienne (though he didn't play in the 1976 European Cup Final), feature in Sporting Club Bastia's UEFA Cup Final, and play in the NASL (for le Manic de Montréal, where I actually saw one of the six matches he played for them). For whatever reason, there were very few French players in the original NASL.

    And Eusebio is, I believe, the only man to score in both a European Cup Final and a Soccer Bowl.
    Last edited by ursus arctos; 14-08-2017 at 22:42.

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