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  1. #26
    ursus arctos's Avatar
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    That's quite interesting

    I always thought the derivation from "get" was complete bollocks and am pleased to have expert support.

    Venetian has quite a few words that don't trace well to Italian or Latin, reflecting its cosmopolitan nature and the extensive travel of many of its inhabitants

  2. #27
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    I caught a nice documentary on radio 3 about the Venice Ghetto recently, and another program about Spinoza which was interesting. I've no idea if this link will work outside of the UK (it's the ghetto one)

  3. #28
    Alex Anderson's Avatar
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    (This is what you get, Alex. This is what you get. You deserve this. What goes around comes around. You went onto that Holland/Netherlands thread and you blatantly turned it into a European Cup final trivia thread and your behaviour was so sickening ursus had to apologise on your behalf and go start a separate thread somewhere else just so he could drag you away from the nice Holland/Netherlands people who had done absolutely nothing to antagonise you into European Cup final trivia in any way. Out of order, fat boy. You're like one of those meat-eating blokes in the Eden project - just a selfish dick. Well, how do you like it now, when the moccasin's on the other bunion?! Eh! You got your dream thread. After all those years fantasising about spouting your sad Rial-Raul-Real coincidence and imagining how you'd shout down Jimmy Rimmer in favour of of Miodrag Belodedici, you finally manipulated someone else into starting your precious European Cup thread. And now it's being snatched away. And now they're doing to you what you did to the Holland/Netherlands thread people. They're talking about plural spellings, Alex. Yeah. Can you see that, Alex? They've not even let you get warmed up on your pathetic little "specialised subject" before just shitting all over it. In three easy posts it's now a thread about the plurals of Ghetto, Stiletto, Cornetto or anything else you're likely to find in Venice and - you know what makes it more poetic - Venezia never even qualified for the Champions League . Yeah, suck on that, Mr Thread-stealer! [Mi dispiace - "Signor Thread Stealer!"]Not nice when it happens the other way round, is it! And these are all proper, hardened, OTF and WSC posters. Real men. Dudes. They were being sarcastic about Chelsea signings on the original OTF forum when you were still sending in replies to Bobby Lennox's weekly trivia question in the Ardrossan & Saltcoats Herald ... by Royal Mail! These guys all have thousands of posts under their belts - you're barely out the 900s. These guys are genuinely invoking - nay - embodying the shoot-the-breeze, chat-about-anything-anywhere-anytime, chilled-out WSC spirit you hid behind, undermined and abused to get your little "Europe's premier club competition" thread. No-one's listening to you now - they're listening to the adults! This is why mum never liked you. This is why you never get what you want. Because you never deserve it. So what you gonnae do now, Mrs I-Think-Crespo's-First-Half-Double-Was-More-Beautiful-Than-Liverpool's-Second-Half-Comeback? Eh? You just gonnae sit there and watch another of your dreams go up in smoke? Just gonnae sit there and let it happen, like the Eden Project Walkout you are? It's like what Stephen Fry said, isn't it - if you focus your life around one ambition when you realise that ambition you'll just discover life is still pretty shit. Or are you gonnae try for once in your life? Are you maybe going to find some spine and - shock of shocks - stand up for yourself? ARE YOU GONNAE FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHT TO EUROPEAN CUP TRIVIALISE??!!)

    Oh. Hi. Hey guys. Good morning. Bit overcast and drizzly in Glasgow so far but - huh - suits an old balding ginger like me. I don't really enjoy the heat, especially when you're 21 stone and ...

    Anyway. Yes. I also am always having trouble with the plural of ghetto. Just like I had trouble with the plural of "European Cup/Champions League Final goal-scorers you've seen scoring in the flesh". Yes. D'you ever get that? I had trouble with that up until 1989, when I went to see Rangers being pumped at home by Bayern Munich - in the European Cup coincidentally - and one of the visitors' goals was scored Ludwig Kögl, who'd scored Bayern's goal in the 1987 European Cup final against Porto in Vienna. Yeah, coz he was the second such scorer I'd seen scoring in front of me. Before then it was only singular. Back in 1984 I was at the game where Kenny Dalglish scored his last goals for Scotland, his famous world class brace against Spain. But, with him having scored Liverpool's winner v Brugge at Wembley in 1978, that was also the first time I'd seen with my own eyes a goal by a guy who'd scored in the European Cup/Champions League final.

    For a man so obsessed with the European Cup/Champions League final, it's a bit embarrassing to admit I've only ever been to one. It was a great one, yeah - Real Madrid winning it at Hampden again, in 2002 - but money (and exams - LOT of repeat years and re-sits) always prevented me from getting to more in the years when you could see empty seats in Athens, Bari, Munich etc. as you watched live on telly. So, by way of annexing the thrill and getting as visceral an experience of those missed finals as I could muster, I always loved it when I saw a guy who'd done it in the biggest club final in the game doing it in a game I was attending. Did the same thing with World Cup final scorers. But that bastard's only every four years. It's the European Cup final stats what kept me warm on those long winter nights cuddling my Rothmans.

    In fact. You know what would be great; I'll show you mine, you show me yours. I've seen 18 such goals - although, in fairness, three of them were in the actual Champions League Final (Which was an achievement in itself - imagine I'd gone to the final in 1986, 1988 and 91 and it ended up the only time I saw European Cup final goalscorers scoring was in pre-season friendlies at Ibrox!) - but I'd love to see everyone else's list. You've been at a game, a guy who's scored or went on to score in the ECCC/UCL final has put one in the net. Let me know. Here's my list. (Genius, Alex! They haven't even noticed what you're doing, the fools. Yes! Fight for your thread! You are the, and indeed, "da" man. You are just big-boned. That is just a high hairline. Fight, you chunky, wispy-fringed stallion - FIGHT!)

    Kenny Dalglish 1978 (Scotland 3 – 1 Spain, 1986 World Cup qualifier, Hampden, 1984)

    Ludwig Kögl 1987 (Rangers 1 – 1 Bayern Munich, European Cup first round, first leg, 1989)

    Karl-Heinz Riedle 1997 (Scotland 0 – 1 Germany, friendly, Ibrox, 1993)

    Paolo Maldini 2005 (Milan 1 – 1, Serie A, San Siro, 1994)

    Alessandro Del Piero 1997 (Rangers 0 – 4 Juventus, Champions League Group match, Ibrox, 1995)

    Fabrizio Ravanelli 1996 (Rangers 0 – 4 Juventus, Champions League Group match, Ibrox, 1995)

    Gaizka Mendieta 2001 (Rangers 1 – 2 Valencia, Champions League Group match, Ibrox, 1999)

    Raul 2000, 2002 (2002 Champions League Final)

    Lucio 2002 (2002 Champions League Final)

    Zinedine Zidane 2002 (2002 Champions League Final)

    Frank Lampard 2008 (Everton 1 – 1 Chelsea, FA Cup, Goodison Park, 2006)

    Lionel Messi 2009, 2011(Barcelona 2 – 0 Rangers, Champions League Group match, Nou Camp, 2007)

    Xabi Alonso 2005 (Rangers 0 – 4 Liverpool, friendly, Ibrox, 2008)

    Dirk Kuyt 2007 (Liverpool 4 – 1 Benfica, UEFA Europa League quarter-final 2nd leg, Anfield, 2010)

    Wayne Rooney 2011 (Rangers 0 – 1 Manchester United, Champions League Group match, Ibrox, 2010)

    David Villa 2011 (Scotland 2 – 3 Spain, Euro 2012 qualifier, Hampden, 2010)

    Thomas Muller 2012 (Scotland 2 – 3 Germany, Euro 2016 qualifier, Hampden, 2015)

    İlkay Gündoğan 2013 (Scotland 2 – 3 Germany, Euro 2016 qualifier, Hampden, 2015)


    [AND THEN THERE'S ALL THE NEAR-MISSES, i.e., EUROPEAN CUP FINAL SCORERS WHO I'VE SEEN PLAYING IN THE FLESH BUT WHO COULDN'T MUSTER A GOAL WHILE BREATHING THE SAME STADIUM AIR AS ME: Basile Boli, 1993, scored twice for Rangers - I was at neither game; Trevor Francis, 1979, played a whole season for Rangers - I was at most of the games – he didn’t score one single goal for us; and when my dad took me to see Scotland against England at Wembley in 1983 Phil Neal, 1977 & 1984, Trevor Francis, 1979, and Peter Withe, 1982, all started - only goals of the game scored by Bryan Robson and Gordon Cowans, the latter of whom played in the 1982 European Cup final but didnae fucking score. Seen John Robertson, 1980, Steven Gerrard, 2005, Vladimir Smicer, 2005, Arjen Robben, 2013, Stefan Effenberg, 2001, and probably a few more in the flesh – Mario Mandžukić, 2013, playing for Atletico Madrid at the Calderon in 2015 - but they haven’t scored in front of my eyes]

    (seamless, Alex. Smooth as a Trevor Steven pass into the feet of an advancing Ian Durrant. They'll never know what you're up to. You own this thread. Fuck Mum - you rule.)

  4. #29
    Alex Anderson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shackleford View Post
    I'm still fuming about this. I say "still"... it happened 25 years before I was born, but yeah, fizzing. Pretty sure we'd have won it, too.
    Well, the Hibs got to the semis, Shackleford so ...

    Another Euro bummer about the Dandies. Everyone knows about Gothenburg 83 - along with Chelsea after a replay in 71, Aberdeen after extra time prevent Real Madrid ever being able to claim they won all three European trophies ... and that night they were managed by Di STEFANO - but few remember they also reached the semis the following season. Some man, Fergie.

    My fav stat about the 55-56 European Cup, however, comes from Hibs playing Djurgarden in the second round/quarter-finals. Weather in Sweden was so bad Djurgarden played their "home" leg at Firhill. Not only means that, surreally, Hibs have played European Cup football at Firhill and that Partick Thistle can lay claim with the likes of Parma and Bayer Leverkusen to have hosted European Cup/Champions League football despite never being national champions - it also means guid auld Firhill was the second ground in Britain, after Easter Road, to host the continent's top club competition.

    Never mind Hampden, Parkhead and Ibrox - the European Cup was played at Firhill, before it was played at Old Trafford, Anfield or Wembley.

  5. #30
    Alex Anderson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tee rex View Post
    that "I think I knew but forgot whether I knew" material that drifts in and out of the brain with age.
    What I'm hoping, tee rex, is that when I can't recognise my wife's face or remember my own name I will still lumber into the care home television lounge, see the Super Cup final highlights are on and - just before Matron flicks it over to Homes under the Hammer - I'll point my Zimmer and shout "Seville v Real Madrid? They always met in the Super Cup final when I still had two of my own teeth and - I'll TELL YE SOMETHING ELSE - Real utterly pumped them in the third ever European Cup ... just like they would've done Athletic in the previous ... what?! ... who said 'Ursus hus already said that'? Shut up and go get me mah World Soccer ..."

  6. #31
    Snake Plissken's Avatar
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    I *really* have to get the Like function sorted in the next iteration of the forum.

  7. #32
    ursus arctos's Avatar
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    Quite

    "Write things down", my mother said.

    If only she had said, "Write things down, otherwise you will never know for sure if Pierino Prati scored for Rochester Lancers against Cosmos at Giants Stadium in 1979."

  8. #33
    Alex Anderson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ursus arctos View Post
    If only she had said, "Write things down, otherwise you will never know for sure if Pierino Prati scored for Rochester Lancers against Cosmos at Giants Stadium in 1979."
    A familiar fat transatlantic green-eyed monster is almost hoping Prati didn't score in that game, ursus but extensive research - I looked up the very decent Wiki page on the 1979 NASL season - has only revealed he didn't make any of the all-star teams that year and the most basic of psychological profiling reveals it's the fact your mother cared for you so much more than mine did me powering my bitterness towards the fact you've seen "an" NASL game, far less the Cosmos at Giants Stadium. Don't worry about him scoring. If you even know Prati was on the park that day it's twisting the knife more than reminding me the only advice my mother ever gave me was "just coz it says Smirnoff on the label doesn't mean its not meths in the bottle".

    If you tell me you saw Der Bomber scoring for the Strikers I will fucking shit ... or tell you about my dad.

    My dad - saw Real Madrid draw 2-2 at Rugby Park, Kilmarnock in the 1965-66 European Cup (having also been at Killie's famous 5-1 comeback win over Eintracht in the Fairs Cup, he saw the Real v Eintracht European Cup final as vicariously as I enjoyed 15 of the 18 final goal-scorers I listed above) yet all he will talk about is the fact his scooter broke down on the way back home. And that Real were filthy. Biggest disappointment of his football-watching life.

  9. #34
    ursus arctos's Avatar
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    Sorry, Alex

    I didn't know that site existed until an hour ago.

  10. #35
    Alex Anderson's Avatar
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    Beautiful, Ursus - particularly if the scorers listing represents the scoring order. I would have absolutely loved it - and I bet you did anyway - if I'd been enjoying such a cool game and then, with the last kick, the last man to score a hat-trick in the European Cup final, knocks one home in front of me. Was going to ask for the rest of your list but I've never seen a goal by an ECCC/UCL final hat-trick scorer .... so enjoy that cigar.

    Great piece of work finding that site too - it's a belter and could come in handy. But your best piece of work was being at that game ... and Dennis Tueart knew a bit about scoring in finals/bowls too.
    Last edited by Alex Anderson; 11-08-2017 at 19:59. Reason: As did Big Giorgio too, obviously!

  11. #36
    Alex Anderson's Avatar
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    I've been drunk in Bobby's Bar - pub owned by Lisbon Lion Bobby Lennox, in Saltcoats.

  12. #37
    Satchmo Distel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levin View Post
    I caught a nice documentary on radio 3 about the Venice Ghetto recently, and another program about Spinoza which was interesting. I've no idea if this link will work outside of the UK (it's the ghetto one)
    Works great. Many thanks!!

  13. #38
    Rogin the Armchair fan's Avatar
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    The only European Cup final I've been to was the one at the old Wembley in 1992 (so Koeman, I've seen score in one). Such was the lack of interest among the English public to attend that match me and a mate were offered our tickets the night before - for less than face value - by a tout. In a pub in Southampton. Hard to imagine a Champions League final at Wembley nowadays failing to sell out.

  14. #39
    Satchmo Distel's Avatar
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    I saw Di Matteo play for Italy v Russia in Euro 96, so can claim to have watched a player who has won the European Cup as a coach.

  15. #40
    ursus arctos's Avatar
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    Dennis Tueart was my favourite Cosmo by miles. He regularly outplayed all of his better compensated teammates.

  16. #41
    Satchmo Distel's Avatar
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    George Best said he scored his greatest goal in MLS. I am skeptical.

  17. #42
    ursus arctos's Avatar
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    Judge for yourself

    I was there, and it is by some distance the best NASL goal I've ever seen live.

  18. #43
    Chemin-de-fairy's Avatar
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    I had to listen to the audio 3 times, to make sure he hadn't said "That is the greatest fucking goal I have ever seen".

  19. #44
    Rogin the Armchair fan's Avatar
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    What do the following have in common - Stade de Reims, Roma, Barcelona, Manchester United and Bayern Munich?

  20. #45
    Alex Anderson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogin the Armchair fan View Post
    What do the following have in common - Stade de Reims, Roma, Barcelona, Manchester United and Bayern Munich?
    Has to be losing the final in their home country (Barca in Seville to Steaua in 86, Man U at Wembley to Barca in 2011, Reims in Paris in 1956), Rogin - if not their actual home ground (Roma in 84 to Liverpool, Bayern in 2012 to Chelsea), which is kinda annoying for symmetry's sake, when the Nou Camp and Old Trafford have staged the final too. But Reims never hosted the final so it would be a bust anyway ... even though they often played big home games in the Parc des Princes ... like Ajax at the Amsterdam Olympic, Anderlecht at Heysel and every Austrian team past or present at the Prater/Ernst Happel ... (Doesn't matter how much you drag it out, Alex - the Auguste Delaune never hosted the European Cup final. Let it go)

    Real in 1957 and Inter in 1965 won it on their own actual grounds. And while we've had the likes of Man U at Wembley in 68, Liverpool back there ten years later, and Juve at Rome's Olympic Stadium in 96, the sweetest "Home Country But Not Home Ground" wins must have been for Ajax in 72 - winning it at De Kuip - and Dortmund winning it at Bayern's old Olympic Stadium in Munich in 97 (Right up there with Dundee United securing their first three major trophies all at Dens Park ... as Paul Lambert said while Lars Ricken celebrated his winner against Juve ...)
    Last edited by Alex Anderson; 12-08-2017 at 10:32. Reason: I like this thread

  21. #46
    Alex Anderson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
    I saw Di Matteo play for Italy v Russia in Euro 96, so can claim to have watched a player who has won the European Cup as a coach.
    Why, Satchmo. WHY??!! I had my goal-scorers list honed to perfection ... I built it up slowly over the years ... I'm too old to start going back through all the possible ...

    ZIDANE!! (when he scored that goal at Hampden in the 2002 final!!)

    See what you've done. I'm not gonnae be able to stop thinking about this now and, frankly, I don't have the emotional capacity to ...

    RIJKAARD!!! For Holland at Hampden in a 1994 friendly!!

    Aw, god ...

  22. #47
    Alex Anderson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogin the Armchair fan View Post
    The only European Cup final I've been to was the one at the old Wembley in 1992 (so Koeman, I've seen score in one). Such was the lack of interest among the English public to attend that match me and a mate were offered our tickets the night before - for less than face value - by a tout. In a pub in Southampton. Hard to imagine a Champions League final at Wembley nowadays failing to sell out.
    Brilliant, Rogin. Jealous. Aye and totally crazy to think of that now - of telling people you were practically gifted a ticket to see Barca's first ever European Cup win. They've got Koeman's boot what hit that ball in a glass case in the Nou Camp museum for fucks sake - it's like you saw a saint being martyred while everyone else just gets to see the relics.

    I'm still amazed enough that I got mine for the 2002 final for just £15.00 over face value - and that that face value was only £35.00. We're only talking fifteen years ago but I'd imagine fifty notes would barely get you a flat, warm Carlsberg and soggy hotdog in the concourses of the Principality/Millennium back in June.

    My favourite performance by any team ever is Milan in the 94 final. I still have the video and, purely so I can get my fix of watching it every six months or so, I still have a VHS machine (it's a joint-funded charity initiative through the NHS with Currys) - and the one thing you can't but fail to notice, as well as the Fleetwood Town flag in the front row, is the number of empty seats. Athens old Olympic stadium is still jumping, obviously, but there's so many big white plastic seats with no fat arse parked in them. Tragic. I coulda been there.

    There's even more ridiculous stuff, like the 1969 and 1980 finals both at the Bernabeu and both more than half empty. Which means there was something like 60,000 spare places both when Pierino Prati scored the last hat-trick in the final and John Robertson became the last Scotsman to score in the final. I was born two months after the 69 final and so was still a bit young to be heading for Madrid in 1980 but it shows that when the local team had enough European heritage of its own for locals to be uninterested, anyone who could get there could just walk in. And in 1994, when I was hitting my mid-20s and about to embark on my world travels and THERE WERE STILL PLENTY SPARE SEATS AT THE CHAMPIONS LEAGUE FINALS ... yeah, that still rankles.

    Coulda, shoulda, woulda. Always had exams of some sort on when I was unattached but old enough to be hitting these finals in their pre-sell-out days. But - Jeezus - I ended up with a shit degree anyway. Even just to jump on an overnight bus to London (which my mate and I did for Scotland losing at Wembley in 88 and then again for the semi and final of Euro 96 at the same place) for that 92 final would have given me something so much more boast- and pride-worthy than a scraped third and a Student Loan I've yet to pay off.
    Last edited by Alex Anderson; 12-08-2017 at 12:07. Reason: Ignore anyone sayin there was 135,000 at the 1960 final. It was 127,621. Hampden empty. Coz Rangers lost in the semis. TRUE!

  23. #48
    Alex Anderson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ursus arctos View Post
    I was there, and it is by some distance the best NASL goal I've ever seen live.
    ursus - European Cup final scorers you've seen scoring live; Was that your list you posted at the top of this thread?! You've seen them all, haven't you. Appreciate you breaking it to me gently, though ... in instalments ... rather than "blistering" it.

    Bloody brilliant. That goal went viral back in the day, in the way anything can now. Grandstand, Scotsport, The Big Match - Archie MacPherson to Dickie Davies - saw it everywhere and cooed about it then the way the kids coo about a Messi solo effort these days.

    And that's why the European Cup final/Champions League is the same for me - Best and Messi both scoring at Wembley in the final. One for Man U - one against. No coincidence. Arena of the greats.

  24. #49
    ursus arctos's Avatar
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    The Bernabeu has hosted four finals and never been full if Real Madrid were not involved

    56-57 Madrid-Fiorentina 124,000
    68-69 Milan-Ajax 31,782
    79-80 Nottingham Forest-Hamburg 51,000
    09-10 Internazionale-Bayern 73,490

    Its current capacity is 81,044

  25. #50
    Alex Anderson's Avatar
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    So that's one European Cup final stat Atletico have won: At under 24,000, the attendance at their replay against Bayern in 1974 is the lowest for any final.

    But, with the Heysel holding around 60,000 in 1974 and the Bernabeu holding at least 120,000 in 1969, Milan v Ajax (their first, erm, final meeting) is by far the emptiest European Cup final ever ... so yet another European Cup crown ends up at the Bernabeu.

    The Heysel also has the record for the Cup-Winners' Cup's lowest final attendance (also the lowest for any European final); 3,208 for Sporting CP v MTK Budapest in 1964 ... and that one went to a replay too.

    But that replay was at Antwerp, watched by a whopping 14,000. What happens in that situation - do you add the two crowds together for your true final attendance? I doubt many travelled to Antwerp from Brussels so it's not as if many of the two crowds would be "duplicates" ...

    Shut up, Alex - keep it European Cup. And Champions League. It's clear you're already out your depth.
    Last edited by Alex Anderson; 13-08-2017 at 11:39. Reason: Naw but seriously - shut it.

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