European Cup Trivia

[Sam]

And look what you started, Sam ... everyone's really annoyed with you. I've yet to meet the football fan who doesn't just hate having to correct another's trivia mistakes (for example, Walter Samuel - the only other Argentine to do it. And I'm pinching that from ursus). Don't do it again. For at least five, ten minutes.

Ah for fuck's sake.

[Alex Anderson]

Here's another one for you, Alex.

Arie Haan, who was a substitute for that match against Panathinaikos, came on at the beginning of the second half, and scored, was wearing number 15.

No. Right. Wait a minute. My head's fried here:

Now I DID know about Haan's shot coming off Kapsis because, for years, I had all the final scorers memorised and the book I memorised them from had Ajax's second at Wembley down as a Kapsis OG and the first time I saw it in another book as a Haan goal I had a bum-squeaking existential crisis. It was almost as if, I suddenly thought, memorising lots of stats about a football competition might not be as sure-fire a way to get on in life as it had always appeared. But then Kapsis's SON was in the Greece team that won Euro 2004 and I recognised his surname and made the connection and lots of women threw themselves at me - men too - for announcing in the pub "Hey! I think it might be his dad who scored an OG for Panathinaikos in the 1971 European Cup final"- and I realised I was okay continuing on my path of European Cup Trivia. After all, if I could get over the great re-branding crisis of 1992 ...

AND, with Sam's "UCL & Libertadores winners" point I did do a good bit of cheating but I knew where to start looking. I was backing up educated guesses with cold, hard Googling to, ye know, settle it once and for all.

But this. Oh man. This "first to wear number 14 from the start" from Hurley ... and now the bear piling in with "and he wore 15 in the same game". This I can't cope with.

Nah. Just straight on to Wiki. Sod ethics. Sometimes, when you feel your head starting to melt and the world collapsing in on you, you just have to get nasty or die.

I knew, mind palace-style, the first year subs were allowed in the final - just keepers and both were unused - was 1968 (coz that's how Jimmy Rimmer got his bogus claim on "First man to win it with two different clubs", despite having played a full half of a final for no-one): But, thereafter, I've had to go Wiki. Yeah, I know it's only two finals twixt Jimmy Rimmer's benched bum Wembley and Anthimos Kapsis's deflection Wembley, and Denis has already explained what Cruyff had on his back at the Bernabeu in 69 ... but I had to Wiki for absolutely everything else to do with shirt numbers above 11 in European Cup finals and I HOPE YOU'RE BOTH PLEASED WITH YOURSELVES. You broke a man. Took his pride. Reduced him to - well, you reduced him to the trivia equivalent of using a condom. Got the job done but it was JUST. SO. PLASTICKY. Congratulations. I hope you can sleep tonight because I sure as hell know I can't...

ANYWAY, the great enigma George Connelly of Celtic (currently driving a taxi somewhere in Fife) is the first man ever to wear 14 in the European Cup final - as a sub mind - in 1970 versus Feyenoord, for whom Guus Haak comes on wearing 15.

So Feyenoord beat Ajax to being the first club to have a player wearing the 15 shirt in the final. But Haak came on in extra time so Ajax can still claim Haan as the first to wear it, on the pitch, in normal time.

BUT, in that 1969 final, with Cruyff wearing 10 and Milan making no substitutions because they were cruising it, Ajax brought on the first substitutes ever to play in the European Cup/Champions League final. Klaas Nuninga wore 12 and Bennie Muller 13 - the first men ever to wear these, or any numbers above 11, in a European Cup final. All of which means Ajax are the first club to have fielded players in the final wearing numbers 1 through to 15.

HOWEVER, Nuninga and Muller came on at half-time so I have no way of distinguishing which one is officially the first sub ever to play the final. I've found the whole game here but, while it shows the teams coming off at the end of the first half, you can't see which Ajax sub crosses the line first as the teams come back out.

By the 72 final, Cruyff's 14 having broken the mould at Wembley the previous season, Ajax have gone typically Netherlandish crazy, with no listed subs but a starting line-up containing 12, 13, 14 AND 15. They're just showing off now, really.

Yet, in a lovely book-ending, their opponents that night are the other half of Milan, who bring on two subs and Inter's Sergio Pellizzaro is the first man ever to wear the number 16 in the European Cup/Champions League final.

After that, you're on your own - I've trawled as deep as I can go down the slimy well of Wiki. Seventeen is a number too far.

[ursus arctos]

You gloriously mad bastard

[Sam]

*Backs towards thread exit door slowly and quietly*

[Alex Anderson]

Oh, Sam. Don't be silly now. You know we all love you here. And it's because we love you that you'll find that exit door is locked.

Now, now. Come, come. Please don't fret. It's for your own good, Sam. You're safe here. With us. Thinking about shirt numbers and short colours and all the various socks ever worn in the glorious European Champion Clubs' Cup ... there was a reason you came up with that stat yesterday. It's no "accident" that you're here.

Things just needed corrected, didn't they. Yes. We corrected your stat.

And - yes - do you see that picture on the wall by the exit (Don't scratch at the padlock - please, Sam - you'll only hurt yourself)? See that picture of the Real Madrid team of 1960, with the Hampden crowd behind them and the original, smaller European Cup trophy in front of them? Take a closer look at that picture, Sam. (Yes. That's it. Go on.) Have a closer look at the man in the middle of the front row...

No, it's not Alfredo di Stefano, is it. No. That's your face, isn't it. Yes. You are the leading goal-scorer in the European Cup, Sam. You've always been the leading goal-scorer in the European Cup...

[Alex Anderson]

You gloriously mad bastard

Went to bed thinking "12, 13, 14, 15, 16... 16 ... 16...";

Woke up thinking "Attilio Lombardo is the baldest, Ferenc Puskas is the fattest ... but IS Paul Breitner the hairiest? Is Neymar the skinniest? Messi MUST be the smallest..."

I know I sinned with the Wiki. But I repented. I can be born again. Please let me back in. I have so much more pure stat to give...

And if I had to pick the tallest player ever to play in the final of the European Cup/Champions League I'd have to guess Edwin van der Sar. Surely that record has to be owned by a cross-breed of goalkeeper and Dutch, the two tallest races on earth?

I know, at 6ft 6, he's an inch taller than Jon Carew (Valencia 2001), the only other contender in my, erm, head.

I'm out of the race to find the ugliest player in this final though. For reasons of personal weakness, my opinion is automatically compromised by 1967 and 1970. All I can do is own my problem and remove myself from temptation.

David Fairclough must be the gingerest (Ha! Dribble past THAT, Jinky Johnstone!).

[3 Colours Red]

I'm out of the race to find the ugliest player in this final though.

Dirk Kuyt.

[Alex Anderson]

Debonair Dirk? Cute Kuyt? Surely not. Blondest, perhaps ... although Schmeichel and the entire Malmo side from 1979 would have something to say about that too.

[Alex Anderson]

... for best-looking player ever to appear in the final I'll start the bidding at Florent Malouda.

I know Paolo Maldini modelled for Versace (and his dad wasn't as ugly in 1963 as his later managerial side-parting-with-hint-of-grey-and-tub-of-lard would have you believe) and Iniesta's passing, Van Basten's turns and Milan's third in Istanbul are easily the most beautiful things we've seen in finals but, objectively looking at the dudes themselves, Malouda's cheekbones alone (2008 & 2012) are just to die for.

Hot damn. Smouldering, they are...

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

Objectively the ugliest ever finalist has to be Rooney, doesn't it? He looks like a potato.

[Alex Anderson]

Good call, Rogin.

Bastian Schweinsteiger (2010, 12 & 13) wasn't ever pretty ...



... and Jens Jeremeis (1999) never did it for me...



... but, particularly before he had the implants, Rooney nails it.

Even though they have lots of money, much success and are all far prettier than me, this feels wrong. I shouldn't have started it.

So here's my opening gambit for hardest-looking mofo ever to play in the European Cup/Champions League final:

[Nocturnal Submission]

Went to bed thinking "12, 13, 14, 15, 16... 16 ... 16...";

Woke up thinking "Attilio Lombardo is the baldest, Ferenc Puskas is the fattest ... but IS Paul Breitner the hairiest? Is Neymar the skinniest? Messi MUST be the smallest..."

I know I sinned with the Wiki. But I repented. I can be born again. Please let me back in. I have so much more pure stat to give...

And if I had to pick the tallest player ever to play in the final of the European Cup/Champions League I'd have to guess Edwin van der Sar. Surely that record has to be owned by a cross-breed of goalkeeper and Dutch, the two tallest races on earth?

I know, at 6ft 6, he's an inch taller than Jon Carew (Valencia 2001), the only other contender in my, erm, head.

I'm out of the race to find the ugliest player in this final though. For reasons of personal weakness, my opinion is automatically compromised by 1967 and 1970. All I can do is own my problem and remove myself from temptation.

David Fairclough must be the gingerest (Ha! Dribble past THAT, Jinky Johnstone!).

Our very own Crouchasaurus is taller than vdS.

[Alex Anderson]

Our very own Crouchasaurus is taller than vdS.

The inch which makes all the difference. He never even crossed my mind, Nocturnal Sub. Last 12 minutes of Athens 2007; Peter Crouch is, at this moment in time, the tallest man ever to play in the European Cup/Champions League final.

No truck with anyone suggesting he could have made it a double on ugliest but a definite contender for skinniest too.

[denishurley]

After that, you're on your own - I've trawled as deep as I can go down the slimy well of Wiki. Seventeen is a number too far.

The first number 17 was Borussia Dortmund's Jorg Heinrich - 1996-97 was the first year that UEFA allowed clubs to give players permanent numbers in European competitions.

That final provided a few firsts:
18. Vladimir Jugovic/Lars Ricken (Jugovic started, Ricken a sub)
19. Paulo Sousa
20. Alessio Tacchinardi
21. Zinedine Zidane

Juve's number 22 Gianluca Pessotto and Dortmund's 23 René Tretschok were unused subs.

In that first season of squad numbers, clubs had to number their senior players from 1-25, with 26 and 27 left empty for transfers and then 28 and higher were reserved for the B-list players (under 20? under 21?)

It was for this reason that Philip Neville wore 28 for Manchester United, despite having 12 as his domestic squad number. Paul Scholes shifted from 18 to 12 for Europe while Chris Casper went from 26 to 18.

[Nocturnal Submission]

Not to pick on the charming Merseysiders, but when it comes to the ugliest players Tommy Smith was no oil painting.

Ugly mind too, allegedly:

[blameless]

Smith isn't a handsome chap, but then again nobody's going to be carving marble busts of Piet Romeijn (Feyenoord, 1970) either:

[3 Colours Red]

I'm not shifting from my position - none of these other ugmos ever had a terrace chant about how aesthetically displeasing they were; Kuyt did.

[blameless]

Oh, and Dida is another 6-foot-5-er to stand alongside Carew. Still not as tall as van der Sar, mind.

[Alex Anderson]

Smith can also slip into the hardest badass-looking mofo category - him against Stam would deserve a bigger purse than Mayweather v McGregor (not that I'm saying you ever used a purse, Tommy ...).

I'm just about to eat and, must admit, Piet Romeijn is not putting me off. He has a touch of the Oliver Kahns about him - but without the hint of evil. However, when I pop on the telly and Rooney's all over it for his drink-drive bust...

3 Colours Red - I admire your defiance. You've nailed your colours to the ugly stick and you're beating a Feyenoord legend with it. Maybe there's something in the water at De Kuip - Wim van Hanegem was, erm, no Florent Malouda:



But I've just been caught trawling images of Dirk, mumbling "Mmm-hmm. You don't need no alibi ... No, Siree..."

[Alex Anderson]

The first number 17 was Borussia Dortmund's Jorg Heinrich - 1996-97 was the first year that UEFA allowed clubs to give players permanent numbers in European competitions.

That final provided a few firsts:
18. Vladimir Jugovic/Lars Ricken (Jugovic started, Ricken a sub)
19. Paulo Sousa
20. Alessio Tacchinardi
21. Zinedine Zidane

Juve's number 22 Gianluca Pessotto and Dortmund's 23 René Tretschok were unused subs.

In that first season of squad numbers, clubs had to number their senior players from 1-25, with 26 and 27 left empty for transfers and then 28 and higher were reserved for the B-list players (under 20? under 21?)

It was for this reason that Philip Neville wore 28 for Manchester United, despite having 12 as his domestic squad number. Paul Scholes shifted from 18 to 12 for Europe while Chris Casper went from 26 to 18.

THIS! This is a guy who puts the work in. This is the knowledge.

[denishurley]

Thanks Alex, I'm just standing on the shoulders of giants

[Alex Anderson]

Thanks Alex, I'm just standing on the shoulders of giants

Me too mate but, while ursus is away, can this fat-ass pygmie just express his astonishment that it took quarter of a century for 17 to follow 16 onto a European Cup/UCL final pitch. Bloody fascinating.

Stunned it took til 1997 - feels as if mad, large squad numbers have been the norm for forever. Mind you - I suppose it was 20 years ago. I can't make up my mind if this makes me feel younger or older than I thought I was.

I watched that final with about twenty folk stuffed in my room in my (mature) student digs. Only half of us were Scottish but we all toasted Paul Lambert as the first Scot to win it with a foreign club. Of course he then went to Celtic but, Glasgow quiz question, can anyone name the four players who won the European Cup/Champions League after leaving Celtic Park?

Anyway. Scotland are about to play a World Cup qualifier. I'll be under the duvet for the rest of the weekend.

[denishurley]

Henrik Larsson is one.

Kenny Dalglish also.

Not sure how many former Rangers players have done it, but Gennaro Gattuso is part of said club. I know, that's of no use to the question.

[Sam]

Henrik Larsson is one.

[Satchmo Distel]

Getting a winners medal after leaving Old Trafford - Jimmy Rimmer, Ronaldo...?