European Cup Trivia

[Alex Anderson]

Sorry Denis. 1994 was the greatest thing I've ever seen from any one team. Any competition. Any era. International or club. The build-up and hype actually played a part in that; Barcelona weren't disappointing - they were world class, and they were annihilated.

Satchmo - spot-on re those 78 to 93 finals. I remember Porto v Bayern wasn't live on UK telly and I was gutted because both teams scoring in the final, in normal time too, had become a flippin rarity (it was bookended with two goalless finals).

First final I ever remember watching was 1977. I was almost eight years old but it was so full of incident - and FOUR GOALS! - it sustained me through the grim years thereafter. Although I think, honestly, my interest was maintained by supporting the British sides who featured in seven in the next eight finals, as well as the general rarity of live football on telly - and the sheer innate grandeur of a game which decided the Champions of Europe (koool!).

I often think if I'd missed that 77 final - I still remember my dad exclaiming "Jeezus! Tommy Smith!" just as Barry Davies gives it "And what a delighted scorer - it's TOMMY SMI-ITH!" - and the snore-fest of 78 had been my first, I wouldn't love the European Cup/Champions League final as obsessively as I do.

But, do you know, if I'm honest, I reckon it was the years of shit finals which made me so interested in the history of the competition. I got my first kinda reference book/encyclopaedia on the game in 1980; by 1981 I had all the past winners and runners-up memorised. The stories of 7-3 and 5-3 finals, and the black and white pics of those glam-as-hell teams of the formative years were intoxicating: But I would probably never have bothered reading about them if the finals I grew up with hadn't been such grindingly minimalist occasions.

Who am I kidding. I fucking loved watching Kenny Burns and Larry Lloyd just saying NO to opposition goals. And Spink coming on for Rimmer in 82 and then batting away the Bayern onslaught ... what's not to love.

2005! Had to wait til I was 36 years old until I finally got one of those finals I'd read about as a lad. Milan 94 is my fav ever display by any one team. And their 2005 first-half display is my second-fav by any side in this final. What happened thereafter made it easily the best European Cup final (and it deserved that title rather than "Champions League", given its old skool drama) of my lifetime. I think only Benfica v Real in 62 in Amsterdam can rival it for purely gripping entertainment value for the neutral. I've watched "all" of Real 7 - 3 Eintracht and it's gorgeous but ultimately another exhibition.

No, 2003 wasn't a classic (and did you notice that it was held at Old Trafford the year after the final had been staged at Hampden - just as the 2008 UEFA Cup final was at the Etihad the year after it had been at Hampden). It was diluted for the neutral when Nedved kopped his silly booking in the Delle Alpi in the semi. And it was further dampened by Paolo Montero not earning his rightful place in the history of the European Cup/Champions League final ...

Had to wait three years to see the first man ever red-cared in the final. And it was Lehmann? Jens bloody Lehmann??!! Disgrace, Paolo. How could you let that happen ...

[Alex Anderson]

And the best goal ever in the final?

[Antepli Ejderha]

I was expecting to see Zidane.

[Han van Eijden]

In 1986 Sparta Rotterdam’s Danny Blind made a surprise move to Ajax. Defender Danny Blind had a dream. Danny Blind dreamt of winning prices. Bad luck struck when he was injured by teammate Frank Rijkaard during a training session on a beach in the build-up to the final of the 1986/87 European Cup Winners’ Cup. Danny Blind watched from the stands with mixed emotions.


One year later, during the 1987/88 final of the European Cup Winners’ Cup against KV Mechelen, a well-deserved red card saw him watching his second successive European final watching from the stands.

In 1991/92 Danny Blind was part of the Ajax team who became the second club to win all three major UEFA club competitions, emulating Juventus, when they snatched the UEFA Cup at the expense of Torino. Parenthetically, Ajax competed in the UEFA Cup competition for the first time since its inauguration and won it at their first attempt, with Louis van Gaal making his debut as head coach.

In 1994/95 finally Danny Blind lifted the European Cup after seeing off AC Milan.

In 2016/17 his son Daley Blind faced Ajax with Manchester United in the final of the UEFA Europa League…

[Satchmo Distel]

Gullit's 2nd goal v Steau for me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h7YDB-2LcE

The van Basten goals are not bad, either.

[denishurley]

You might like this kit-nerdery, Alex - in 1994, Umbro designed a new home shirt for Manchester United, featuring a sublimation illustration of Old Trafford in the fabric.

As can be seen here, it featured the Umbro logo picked out in the seats, as in real life.

However, in the early 1990s, UEFA became very strict on the appearance of manufacturers' logos on kits, and so, for European ties, the shirts worn featured an Old Trafford without the Umbro seats (see Gary Pallister's 1995-96 UEFA Cup shirt here)

[3 Colours Red]

For its sheer cheek, Rabah Madjer's deserves consideration:

[Alex Anderson]

In 1986 Sparta Rotterdam’s Danny Blind made a surprise move to Ajax. Defender Danny Blind had a dream. Danny Blind dreamt of winning prices. Bad luck struck when he was injured by teammate Frank Rijkaard during a training session on a beach in the build-up to the final of the 1986/87 European Cup Winners’ Cup. Danny Blind watched from the stands with mixed emotions.


One year later, during the 1987/88 final of the European Cup Winners’ Cup against KV Mechelen, a well-deserved red card saw him watching his second successive European final watching from the stands.

In 1991/92 Danny Blind was part of the Ajax team who became the second club to win all three major UEFA club competitions, emulating Juventus, when they snatched the UEFA Cup at the expense of Torino. Parenthetically, Ajax competed in the UEFA Cup competition for the first time since its inauguration and won it at their first attempt, with Louis van Gaal making his debut as head coach.

In 1994/95 finally Danny Blind lifted the European Cup after seeing off AC Milan.

In 2016/17 his son Daley Blind faced Ajax with Manchester United in the final of the UEFA Europa League…

Nice, Han. Nicely done - nicely put. And, of course, in Solna, Daley was helping United join that group of clubs to have won all three of the European competitions.

I do love a good pattern, embossed with a shiny sheen of destiny. Celtic won their first European trophy in 1967 - Rangers theirs five years later. Celtic reached their first UEFA Cup final in 2003 - Rangers theirs in 2008 ...

Dundee Won their only Scottish title the year after Dundee United finished above them for the first time. Dundee then reached the semis of the European Cup where they lost to the Italian Champions. Dundee United won their only Scottish title - clinching it at Dens Park, home of Dundee - 21 years later ... and then lost in the semi-final of the European Cup to the Italian champions.

So when United reached the semis of the 1986-87 UEFA Cup I was delighted - because Dundee had gone out in the semis of the 1967-68 Fairs Cup. The pattern would be complete!

But then United ruined it by beating Monechengladbach and reaching the final. Inconsiderate bastards ...



[My pattern-loving plumbed a new low three years later. As my dad did his patriotic duty of frenziedly cheering West Germany on against England in Turin I couldn't help wavering ... because, you see, at that point in time, had England won that semi and the final itself, South America and Europe would be tied at 7 World Cup wins each, both divided between one team on three wins and two on two wins each. England, essentially, would have become Europe's Uruguay - winning the only two finals they played in. England would be tied with Uruguay which, when you think about the fact England and Uruguay tied in their first game of the 1966 World Cup is QUITE AN AMAZING PATTERN ...

Yeah, I've stopped now. I try to avoid the patterns. It was all getting a bit "A Beautiful Mind". Except I'm thick as mince, and my imaginary friends were John Motson, Gabriel Hanot and Archie MacPherson ...]

[denishurley]

Kind of on the same track Alex, had England won in 1998, it would have created a nice pattern:

1966...England
1970..............Brazil
1974......................West Germany
1978..........................................Arge ntina
1982.............................................. ..........Italy
1986..........................................Arge ntina
1990......................West Germany
1994..............Brazil
1998...England

[Gangster Octopus]

Ah, but the beginning and end of that pattern were countries winning it for the only time on their own patch...

[ad hoc]

And you can extend it since the winners in 1962 an 2002 were the same nation

[Satchmo Distel]

From 1966 to 1978, hosts won three out of four World Cups, but in the 9 held since then, hosts only won one. Two of those 1966-1978 wins are obviously controversial, although personally I do think the best side won in 1966 and I'm not sure that Argentina's rivals in 1978 were better (there was simply no outstanding team that year, and the format was pants).

[Alex Anderson]

I was expecting to see Zidane.

And I wasn't expecting to see as much of Kaka in the video I posted!

Sorry, Antepli - I posted the wrong bloody link! This one, the one I mistakenly posted amid a binge of YouTube moreishness, is indeed a cracker - giving off the heady aroma of Kaka's delicious first half performance in Istanbul that night - and it does centre itself around the third goal, declaring Kaka's through ball the greatest of all time.

And it may well be. But the little dinked ball he plays through to Shevchenko in the build-up to Crespo's first goal, the one making it 2-0 to Milan on the night, is arguably an even greater piece of skill. Yet it can't even get the title of "assist" despite the fact it's more key than any other factor in that goal.

So while it's absolutely never wrong to focus on Kaka, in respect of this goal it can be confusing. What makes Crespo's second in 2005 the greatest goal of any European Cup/Champions League final is not putting it in bullying, self-important bold type, Alex, but the entire move. The build-up and the finish, for me, is what qualifies Crespo's as number one.



A great strike is a great strike. Zidane's was brilliant in 2002 (and I saw it in the flesh - that's the only final I've actually attended), as was Gullit's second in 1989. And I'm not saying there has to be a phenomenal preamble of passing and dribbling for any goal to grab my pretentious wanker attention. Some strikes are worth it all on their own. But, if I'm honest, those two examples, for my fat self, are a tad "Brazil retro shirt in a beer garden". Ye know what I mean? Almost a bit, well, "obvious". Kinda tacky. A bit touristy.



Satchmo and Antelpi, I know just from the first of their posts I ever read, are connoisseurs. I ain't dissing their judgement. On the contrary, I'm ranting because I feel I'd better come up with a damn good explanation if I'm gonnae disagree with them. And also because I just love talking about this goal (and Crespo goal, really. He had a way - Oh, he had a way ... There's one he scores for Inter at St James' ...).

Put it this way: my mate and I both scored from the half-way line once, in a works game. He beat five opposition players before rounding the keeper and walking it in. I turned and hoofed it so hard from the centre spot that it looped right up the park and dipped into the goal. I was trying to score but mostly I was trying to avoid taking the ball down and holding it up, or running. We were three or four up at the time (we were playing the local Girl Guides ... in their blindfolds ... drunk) and I was always a fat lazy bastard even before I was fat. It was always a source of top bantz between us but, yeah, Allan could play football. I was just a lazy, jammy bastard.



So - you see - Gullit and Zidane are just slobs, really. Gullit controls his beautifully before hitting it perfectly. Zidane doesn't even do that - all his control is in keeping the ball down as he thwacks it. But they do both thwack it. Very accurately and beautifully and very, very memorably - and anything which helps win the biggest club final in football is necessarily of a skill level which renders it innately class - but it's a bit one-note for my tastes. Even Rabah Madjer's utterly gorgeous back-heel comes amid a scramble. It's the shining torch in an overgrown forest of dark desperation.




Milan's third in Istanbul has it all. It's a flare exploding in the heart of the sun. It's a length of the pitch move but it doesn't piss-about - no show-boating here. No triangular passes like Daniele Massaro's amazing second in the 1994 final.

No bludgeoning with sheer strength of will and body either, as per their colossal fourth that night in Athens, scored by Desailly.

No, the goal which puts Milan 3-0 up in the 2005 Champions League final tears the opponent apart yet, from Pirlo's contemptuous interception of Steven Gerrard's stabbed through ball (the Italian doesn't so much cut the pass out as he lays it off directly to Cafu - Pirlo takes Gerrard's ball as he would receive a pass from a team-mate) consists of just eight touches from four players in the course of barely 11 seconds.

I can't find a YouTube clip which shows it from the moment it leaves the last Liverpool boot but Cafu, in space on the right flank, deep in his own territory, takes a touch and plays it straight back to Pirlo. Pirlo controls, turns and plays it straight down into the path of Kaka who turns with it sublimely, leaving Gerrard still thinking about a tackle as he plays the pass of the century past Carragher's despairing, back-tracking lunge.

From start to finish in this goal, Milan have cut out Liverpool's attack, gone through their midfield, splayed their defence and put Crespo one on one with the goalie. It isn't so much a dissection as a flaying.

And even if you don't believe build-up play should be included in any Greatest Goal discussions, Crespo's stunningly outrageous, astordynamically-calibrated, downright orgasmically sexual delicate dink over Dudek could win the award on its own.

So many sources give the goal as being scored in the 44th minute but, according to the ITV clock, Gerrard plays it forward at 42:46 and it bounces over Dudek's line between 43:57 and 43:58.

Juve's goal in this year's final, of course, also had a cracking build-up and a spectacular finish. But Mandzukic's finish was top-heavily spectacular, obliterating the rest of the move - and the build-up itself followed a piece of easy Juve possession at the back. I preferred Real's opener on the night, coming from a counter-attack. But the purest, most organic form of this genre - everything done quickly, neatly, concisely but sublimely - came at the end of the 44th minute in Istanbul 2005.

[Alex Anderson]

Oh. While I was typing that Greatest Goal rant, you guys went all patterny on me. Stop it. Stop it now. I can't go back to that place ... it took me so long to fool them ... I mean, to get well ...

Denishurley. That's a John Hollander poem.

Stop it. Stop it all of you ...

We're meant to be talking about the European Cup ... Real Madrid ... Champions League ... stuff like that ... Real Madrid are first club to retain the European Cup, to win it three times and to win it five times ... just like they are in the Champions League.

Spain is the first country to win the European Cup, the first to have a one-nation semi-final ... the first to have a one nation final (in the Champions League era) and the first to have a one-city final ...

Italy (Milan 1963) won its first European Cup a bit after Spain and England (Man U, 1968) won it a bit after Italy and Germany (Bayern 1974) won it a bit after England ... which is the same order in which we had the one-country finals (Valencia v Real, 2000; Milan v Juve 2003; Chelsea v Man U, 2008; Bayern v Dortmund 2013) ...

These aren't patterns. No. Honest. These are just facts. facts with nice repetitive shapes which prove that god loves me and only me and I alone am doing his work here on Earth ...

[Toby Gymshorts]

And I wasn't expecting to see as much of Kaka in the video I posted!

Sorry, Antepli - I posted the wrong bloody link! This one, the one I mistakenly posted amid a binge of YouTube moreishness, is indeed a cracker - giving off the heady aroma of Kaka's delicious first half performance in Istanbul that night - and it does centre itself around the third goal, declaring Kaka's through ball the greatest of all time.

And it may well be. But the little dinked ball he plays through to Shevchenko in the build-up to Crespo's first goal, the one making it 2-0 to Milan on the night, is arguably an even greater piece of skill. Yet it can't even get the title of "assist" despite the fact it's more key than any other factor in that goal.

So while it's absolutely never wrong to focus on Kaka, in respect of this goal it can be confusing. What makes Crespo's second in 2005 the greatest goal of any European Cup/Champions League final is not putting it in bullying, self-important bold type, Alex, but the entire move. The build-up and the finish, for me, is what qualifies this as number one.

A great strike is a great strike. Zidane's was brilliant in 2002 (and I saw it in the flesh - that's the only final I've actually attended), as was Gullit's second in 1989. And I'm not saying there has to be a phenomenal preamble of passing and dribbling for any goal to grab my pretentious wanker attention. Some strikes are worth it all on their own. But, if I'm honest, those two examples, for my fat self, are a tad "Brazil retro shirt in a beer garden". Ye know what I mean? Almost a bit, well, "obvious". Kinda tacky. A bit touristy.

Satchmo and Antelpi, I know just from the first of their posts I ever read, are connoisseurs. I ain't dissing their judgement. On the contrary, I'm ranting because I feel I'd better come up with a damn good explanation if I'm gonnae disagree with them. And also because I just love talking about this goal (and Crespo goal, really. He had a way - Oh, he had a way ... There's one he scores for Inter at St James' ...).

Put it this way: my mate and I both scored from the half-way line once, in a works game. He beat five opposition players before rounding the keeper and walking it in. I turned and hoofed it so hard from the centre spot that it looped right up the park and dipped into the goal. I was trying to score but mostly I was trying to avoid taking the ball down and holding it up, or running. We were three or four up at the time (we were playing the local Girl Guides ... in their blindfolds ... drunk) and I was always a fat lazy bastard even before I was fat. It was always a source of top bantz between us but, yeah, Allan could play football. I was just a lazy, jammy bastard.

So - you see - Gullit and Zidane are just slobs, really. Gullit controls his beautifully before hitting it perfectly. Zidane doesn't even do that - all his control is in keeping the ball down as he thwacks it. But they do both thwack it. Very accurately and beautifully and very, very memorably - and anything which helps win the biggest club final in football is necessarily of a skill level which renders it innately class - but it's a bit one-note for my tastes. Even Rabah Madjer's utterly gorgeous back-heel comes amid a scramble. It's the shining torch in an overgrown forest of dark desperation.

Milan's third in Istanbul has it all. It's a flare exploding in the heart of the sun. It's a length of the pitch move but it doesn't piss-about - no show-boating here. No triangular passes like Daniele Massaro's amazing second in the 1994 final.

No bludgeoning with sheer strength of will and body either, as per their colossal fourth that night in Athens, scored by Desailly.

No, the goal which puts Milan 3-0 up in the 2005 Champions League final tears the opponent apart yet, from Pirlo's contemptuous interception of Steven Gerrard's stabbed through ball (the Italian doesn't so much cut the pass out as he lays it off directly to Cafu - Pirlo takes Gerrard's ball as he would receive a pass from a team-mate) consists of just eight touches from four players in the course of barely 11 seconds.

I can't find a YouTube clip which shows it from the moment it leaves the last Liverpool boot but Cafu, in space on the right flank, deep in his own territory, takes a touch and plays it straight back to Pirlo. Pirlo controls, turns and plays it straight down into the path of Kaka who turns with it sublimely, leaving Gerrard still thinking about a tackle as he plays the pass of the century past Carragher's despairing, back-tracking lunge.

From start to finish in this goal, Milan have cut out Liverpool's attack, gone through their midfield, splayed their defence and put Crespo one on one with the goalie. It isn't so much a dissection as a flaying.

And even if you don't believe build-up play should be included in any Greatest Goal discussions, Crespo's stunningly outrageous, astordynamically-calibrated, downright orgasmically sexual delicate dink over Dudek could win the award on its own.

So many sources give the goal as being scored in the 44th minute but, according to the ITV clock, Gerrard plays it forward at 42:46 and it bounces over Dudek's line between 43:57 and 43:58.

Juve's goal in this year's final, of course, also had a cracking build-up and a spectacular finish. But Mandzukic's finish was top-heavily spectacular, obliterating the rest of the move - and the build-up itself followed a piece of easy Juve possession at the back. I preferred Real's opener on the night, coming from a counter-attack. But the purest, most organic form of this genre - everything done quickly, neatly, concisely but sublimely - came at the end of the 44th minute in Istanbul 2005.

Brilliant wordsmithery from the boy Alex, as usual. The best bit of the match for me?

Milan losing.

</troll>

[3 Colours Red]

But what about Madjer, eh?

[Han van Eijden]

Martinus Cornelis Koeman from 1938 was a Dutch footballer and international who played as a defender and became one of the sons of GVAV, now FC Groningen. His own sons, Ronald and Erwin, followed in their father’s footsteps, playing for Groningen and the Dutch national team. His son Ronald is the only individual who both played for and managed the domestic ‘classical trio ‘ Ajax, Fe(ij)yenoord and PSV.


One of the stands in the Euroborg stadium of FC Groningen has been named the Koeman Stand after Martin and his two sons.

PSV became the third Dutch side to lift the most prestigious European trophy after Feyenoord and Ajax. In December 1988, European Cup holders PSV from Eindhoven travelled to Japan to meet Nacional Montevideo from Uruguay, who clinched the 1988 Copa Libertadores after having defeated Argentinian Newell's Old Boys in the final.

Boarding the plane were a unique quintet of players, comprising Berry van Aerle, Hans van Breukelen, Ronald Koeman, Gerald Vanenburg and Wim Kieft. They won the 1987/88 Dutch league title, the 1987/88 Dutch KNVB Beker, the 1987/88 European Cup and the 1988 UEFA European championships. They are the only five European players to have ever won a ‘treble’ with their club and a continental trophy with their national team in the same year. However, they wouldn’t clinch their fifth accolade against Nacional.

Incidentally, Ronald Koeman won the 1987/88 European Cup Winners’ Cup and the 1987/88 UEFA Super Cup with KV Mechelen, before joining his brother in Germany to lift the 1988 continental trophy.

The two are now Siamese at Goodison Park.


Post Scriptum.

Holland is an informal reference to The Low Countries, The Netherlands’. Plots and parcels in the region of Holland, part of The Netherlands, in those earlier days were fenced of with perimeters’of ‘holt, ‘(wood). Holland is a derivation from ‘holt-lant’, meaning ‘wood-land’.

[Alex Anderson]

But what about Madjer, eh?

Yet again, I can't understand why anyone would miss an answer in one of my neat, concise, counter-attacky replies ...

... but it's a bit one-note for my tastes. Even Rabah Madjer's utterly gorgeous back-heel comes amid a scramble. It's the shining torch in an overgrown forest of dark desperation ...

Ooh! As I typed "counter-attacky", Steve McManaman - scorer of a fairly decent, technically perfectly struck goal for Real Madrid in the Champions League final two years before Zizou's, said the word "counter-attack" on my telly ... about ten seconds before Coutinho - a skilful, Kaka-ish Brazilian in a white shirt, equalised against a team in all-red ... in the Champions League ... as I spoke to a Liverpool fan ...

They're not patterns - they're messages from angels ...

[Alex Anderson]

You might like this kit-nerdery, Alex - in 1994, Umbro designed a new home shirt for Manchester United, featuring a sublimation illustration of Old Trafford in the fabric.

As can be seen here, it featured the Umbro logo picked out in the seats, as in real life.

However, in the early 1990s, UEFA became very strict on the appearance of manufacturers' logos on kits, and so, for European ties, the shirts worn featured an Old Trafford without the Umbro seats (see Gary Pallister's 1995-96 UEFA Cup shirt here)

This is fucking brilliant. Still had to look at the pictures. Just to double-check. Sure enough, no Umbro ... picked out in seats ... in a drawing of a stadium ... a shadow drawing ... on a shirt ...

It's the football shirt equivalent of a script-writer being asked to remove any line including the phrase "the real thing" from the dialogue of a sitcom not even sponsored by Pepsi ...

And I remember that shirt well because at the very beginning of the 1994-95 season, the first match I saw at Ibrox had a bloke sitting in front of me wearing it. Some fucking Dominos-and-Budweiser fucking sci-fi-loving Scottish bloke who thought he could walk into the East Enclosure at Ibrox - which had just been seated over that summer - and sit in front of me wearing a fucking Man United shirt just because, ye know, Man United were "the only team he really liked" and they were playing Newcastle after Rangers v Sampdoria in a four-team friendly tournament designed to get Rangers ready for our glorious Champions League qualifier exit to AEK Athens.

I remember looking at that picture of Old Trafford on his back and ... and ... and doing absolutely nothing to make him feel in any way uncomfortable. Even when Newcastle beat Man U on pens at around 11pm that evening. Neither did anyone else.

Only been to two games at Old Trafford. Second was Euro 96 Germany v Croatia quarter final. I was in the Stretford End, sitting on one of those seats UEFA have tried to wipe from history!!! It's an attack on my culture - and that of my mate in the East Enclosure that night ... Raphael Lemkin definition of genocide.

[Han van Eijden]

On November 4th 1987 PSV from Eindhoven recorded their last win on the European Cup road to Stuttgart in the 2nd round against Rapid Wien.

In the quarter-finals they drew 1-1 and 0-0 with FC Girondins de Bordeaux and progressed on the away goal rule.

In the semi-finals PSV produced the same scorelines against Real Madrid and reached the final against Benfica on the away goal rule.

After 180 minutes, marred with stalemates, PSV didn’t score for another 120 minutes to force a penalty shootout.

Befitting their dismal run, PSV looked like even managing to turn the penalty shootout into an endless draw. At 5-5, and going into sudden death, Sřren Lerby shouted to goalkeeper Hans van Breukelen ‘for heaven’s sake; just stop one!’. Which he did, after subsitute Anton Janssen had put number six past Silvana, only for goalie Hans van Breukelen to parry António Veloso’s sudden-death effort.

It was Benfica’s fourth consecutive defeat in an European final.

[Alex Anderson]

They also lost the 1983 UEFA Cup final, Han so fifth straight defeat in any European final. And now they're on eight. Bella Guttman certainly knew how to turn a winning pattern into a losing one ...

[Han van Eijden]

They also lost the 1983 UEFA Cup final, Han so fifth straight defeat in any European final. And now they're on eight. Bella Guttman certainly knew how to turn a winning pattern into a losing one ...

Yes Alex, I should have referred to the European Cup series.

[Han van Eijden]

European Cup

In 1967/68 defending champions Celtic were knocked out by Dynamo Kyiv in the first round proper.

Feyenoord endured the same fate in 1970/71, bowing out to UT Arad.

Which other clubs, before the introduction of the Champions League format, have been eliminated in the first round proper in an effort to retain their title?

[Walt Flanagans Dog]

European Cup

In 1967/68 defending champions Celtic were knocked out by Dynamo Kyiv in the first round proper.

Feyenoord endured the same fate in 1970/71, bowing out to UT Arad.

Which other clubs, before the introduction of the Champions League format, have been eliminated in the first round proper in an effort to retain their title?

Liverpool in 1978-79, to Nottingham Forest.

[Lang Spoon]

Drat, that was one I knew!